Originally posted by Sparko
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSeer - I don't get caught up in biblical debates. It pretty much always goes the same way: disagreement on interpretation and each side justifying their position. The bible is not my "basis for life" so I don't get into the business of defending/arguing other people's interpretations of the book. You will have to have those arguments/discussions with the people who hold those views.
Of course - at the end - the highest probability is that you will walk away claiming you have "proven" your position correct, and they will do the same. It's a somewhat pointless exercise, IMO, because there is no way to resolve the dispute.
I know, you'll just say there's no need to dialog with you, that I can just walk away. What makes that difficult is the sheer amount of wrongness you post.
duty_calls.pngVeritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI didn't see it as a rabbit trail. Your responses implied (stated?) that Jesus and Christianity were the solution due to some unique characteristics. I was merely pointing out that most of the characteristics you were citing are not unique to Christianity, and Christianity is not even the source of these concepts. I also do not think any belief system that is misaligned with reality is a good idea. As an atheist, religions are (by definition) misaligned with reality. If I didn't think they were - I wouldn't be atheist.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSeer - I don't get caught up in biblical debates. It pretty much always goes the same way: disagreement on interpretation and each side justifying their position. The bible is not my "basis for life" so I don't get into the business of defending/arguing other people's interpretations of the book. You will have to have those arguments/discussions with the people who hold those views.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense Carp, you bring this stuff up then just hand wave. For instance when we discussed the Biblical prohibition against homosexuality you agreed that texts were clear. Now if a Christian wants to claim that homosexuality is not sin he needs a justification, but what ever that justification it is not Biblical. And that is the point, people often fall prey to the present cultural zeitgeist rather than taking Scripture on face value. The problem, for the most part, is not with the texts but with us. So yes my position, Biblically, is correct.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYes, much easier to just magnify differences all out of proportion
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Postand throw one's hands up in despair,
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Postand act as if you haven't started anything controversial.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou're pretty good at that - it's one reason why attempted dialog with you is so frustrating.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI know, you'll just say there's no need to dialog with you, that I can just walk away.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhat makes that difficult is the sheer amount of wrongness you post.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]34506[/ATTACH]The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMy point to Carp is that people need Jesus, not "Christianity" per se. Because not everyone follows the actual teachings of Jesus. Heck none of us do perfectly. But the principals and values Jesus taught us to live by are what our society needs today. Even if other religions teach similar things, so what? The values are the same: Loving one another, being good parents, children loving their parents, wholesome families. Respect. etc.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense Carp, you bring this stuff up then just hand wave.
Originally posted by seer View PostFor instance when we discussed the Biblical prohibition against homosexuality you agreed that texts were clear.
Originally posted by seer View PostNow if a Christian wants to claim that homosexuality is not sin he needs a justification, but what ever that justification it is not Biblical.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd that is the point, people often fall prey to the present cultural zeitgeist rather than taking Scripture on face value.
Originally posted by seer View PostThe problem, for the most part, is not with the texts but with us. So yes my position, Biblically, is correct.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAnd yet you continue to respond. Really, OBP - complaining that you're frustrated is a little pointless. End your frustration and talk with someone else.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostMy point to Carp is that people need Jesus, not "Christianity" per se. Because not everyone follows the actual teachings of Jesus.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostHeck none of us do perfectly. But the principals and values Jesus taught us to live by are what our society needs today. Even if other religions teach similar things, so what? The values are the same: Loving one another, being good parents, children loving their parents, wholesome families. Respect. etc.
And the differences are not just me to you but also, as I noted, among Christians - and all biblically justified and defended as the "will of god." It is why the term "Christian values" is a nebulous one (to some degree) as are Muslim values and <insert religion X here> values. It is why I don't think "the solution" is Christianity or even "Jesus."
I am more focused on the moral principles and their basis and justification than I am on religions claiming to have moral authority or unique moral justification. While the latter may have had some value to the development of human society, I see that value as diminishing over time. I think we are at an inflection point where it is time for us to let these constructs go.Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-17-2019, 02:47 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou, of all people, should know how difficult it can be to walk away from a conversation, or allow something you think is wrong to go unchallenged.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View PostExactly, and no matter what Carp says there is a moral impetus and influence when I man believes in a God given moral code that can not be matched in atheistic beliefs...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe point, Sparko, is that "the actual teachings of Jesus" are differently interpreted and justified - with each interpreter claiming "they have it right."
I don't agree with a single element on your list.
We should love one another. We should be good parents. We should have loving families (child-to-parent, parent-to-parent, parent-to-child, child-to-child). We should have wholesome families. We should treat one another with respect. But then we will disagree on who can/should be permitted to be a parent - and who can marry whom. You or MM will call someone a moron or lamebrain or replace their posting name with a pejorative mocking name and defend it as "in line with Jesus' teachings."
Now if you want to argue that atheism teaches all that, then my only answer is, then why isn't it working?
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWe were discussing jobs and poverty and that one of the main causes of poverty was men leaving their family instead of caring for them.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf a man becomes a Christian and dedicates his life to following Christ, some of the values he will adopt is that he has to care for his family.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd love his wife, and actually be MARRIED to her. And all that is good for society.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostNow if you want to argue that atheism teaches all that, then my only answer is, then why isn't it working?
It is seldom a good idea to reject a change simply because it creates some degree of confusion. That philosophy leads to little/no change. It is also not a good idea to have change merely for the sake of change. A justified change needs to come with efforts to minimize confusion.
My original response to you was to note that I do not agree that retreating into theistic thinking is the right path forward for us as a species. It also does not meet the criteria of "practical" and "doable." Our world is secularizing (as well as globalizing). Figuring out how to make that work is a better path than trying to turn back the clock, IMO.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI agree that there are anti-homosexual passages in the Christian bible.
And yet they point to biblical passages for their justification - mostly those that call for accepting others, treating one another with kindness, etc. Again - I am not saying they are right and you are wrong. I am saying there is no way to resolve your dispute because each of you picks which passages to emphasize and how to interpret them. Indeed, each of you determines how to approach the bible as a whole: the literal meaning - the spirit of the text - etc.
Like I said - - how the text is approached.
Of course it is - and so is their position - that it is "biblically correct." That it is aligned with traditional church teachings. Etc. Etc. Etc.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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