Who Divides The Country More? Media Or Trump?

[Sparko]

The fake news media and Trump are one and the same divisive right wing propaganda machine and began long ago, probably with Roger Ayles and Fox news after the disgrace of republican president Nixon's forced resignation due to his abuse of power and autocratic tendencies. The right has built a wide ranging propaganda machine throughout the country since that time. I lived in liberal Massachusetts and noticed that even there the airwaves were replete with right wing bs talk and liberal perspectives were not to be found. It's had its effect, and Trump has merely picked up on that brand of propagandizing/lying, and run with it. So you can't really separate the two, Trump and the media, so long as you specify what media you are talking about, are one and the same. All media is not the same.

The fake news media is all liberal, JimL.

[JimL]

The fake news media is all liberal, JimL.

No, actually the fake news is what we used to call propaganda and it comes from the enemies of democracy such as Russia and its right wing nationalist partners here in the U.S. like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones etc etc. Self proclaimed liberal media such as MSNBC obviously has a liberal perspective, but they don't blatantly lie as do the Russians and the Sean Hannity's of the world.

[Sparko]

No, actually the fake news is what we used to call propaganda and it comes from the enemies of democracy such as Russia and its right wing nationalist partners here in the U.S. like Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones etc etc. Self proclaimed liberal media such as MSNBC obviously has a liberal perspective, but they don't blatantly lie as do the Russians and the Sean Hannity's of the world.

No the fake news comes from places like CNN and The New York Times when they print false stories or make up lies. As we have shown multiple times in the past.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...y-Hook-Edition
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...s-No-Fake-Wind
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...More-Fake-News
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...more-fake-news

[oxmixmudd]

The fake news media is all liberal, JimL.

It's not 'fake news' to start with. It's news. In most cases, the one calling it 'fake news' is the one that is lying or distorting the facts.

Jim

[Sparko]

It's not 'fake news' to start with. It's news. In most cases, the one calling it 'fake news' is the one that is lying or distorting the facts.

Jim

So I am a liar? Didn't you just complain about MM calling you a liar?

When CNN and their ilk are caught making up stories over and over, and creating completely biased stories to promote their viewpoint, then it is no longer news. It is Fake News.

[oxmixmudd]

So I am a liar? Didn't you just complain about MM calling you a liar?

When CNN and their ilk are caught making up stories over and over, and creating completely biased stories to promote their viewpoint, then it is no longer news. It is Fake News.

A simple question of logic. How does saying it's not fake news equate to calling you a liar? That fact is all it means is I think you are mistaken. There is a HUGE difference between calling someone a liar (which MM did EXPLICITLY) and saying someone is mistaken.


And from what I see, 'CNN and their ilk' aren't caught 'making up stories over and over'. I was able to scan through the thread about the truck rescue and in the end you guys all basicially decided there really wasn't enough evidence to know if it was fake with whether or not people thought it was fake being 100% correlated with how much they hate CNN.

Calling that 'fake news' is, in fact, the fake news. The rest I'll have to wait till I'm off work to look over.


So far, anything Donald Trump has called fake news that I've investigated has turned out to be a difference of opinion, an exaggeration, or an out and out lie on Trumps part. I've not yet seen anything that was truly fake, but that doesn't mean there are not some examples. My guess would be that a careful examination would show that the % fakery is far lower in the MSM than the side channel propaganda outlets*, but that is by no means any sort of statement of fact, just my own take on it so far.

Jim

*and that their professional response to true fakery would tend to be firing the perpetrator.

[Sparko]

A simple question of logic. How does saying it's not fake news equate to calling you a liar? That fact is all it means is I think you are mistaken. There is a HUGE difference between calling someone a liar (which MM did EXPLICITLY) and saying someone is mistaken.

You said, "In most cases, the one calling it 'fake news' is the one that is lying or distorting the facts."

That was in response to me calling it "fake news." Do the math.

And from what I see, 'CNN and their ilk' aren't caught 'making up stories over and over'. I was able to scan through the thread about the truck rescue and in the end you guys all basicially decided there really wasn't enough evidence to know if it was fake with whether or not people thought it was fake being 100% correlated with how much they hate CNN.

Calling that 'fake news' is, in fact, the fake news. The rest I'll have to wait till I'm off work to look over.

There are numerous other examples. I did a quick search, trying to remember the threads where we discussed it. Not to mention lying reporters that actually lost their jobs over fake news like Brian Williams.

So far, anything Donald Trump has called fake news that I've investigated has turned out to be a difference of opinion, an exaggeration, or an out and out lie on Trumps part.

Just like that list of lies of Trump's you posted that turned out to be mostly exaggerations or just Trump being wrong about something and not lying after all? Or even claiming he was breaking his promises when in fact it was the liberal interference that was stopping him from keeping his promises?

I've not yet seen anything that was truly fake, but that doesn't mean there are not some examples. My guess would be that a careful examination would show that the % fakery is far lower in the MSM than the side channel propaganda outlets*, but that is by no means any sort of statement of fact, just my own take on it so far.

I think rogue keeps a working list of the fake stories somewhere since this comes up often enough. I will see if he posts it for you.

eta: did a quick google search and found this for ya: https://dailycaller.com/2017/06/14/f...es-cnn-pushed/

[One Bad Pig]

Pretty much.

[oxmixmudd]

You said, "In most cases, the one calling it 'fake news' is the one that is lying or distorting the facts."

That was in response to me calling it "fake news." Do the math.

ok! I see how you took it, and I apologize! I had no intent that be directed at you, or even anyone on this web site. My 'the one' as not a general reference but a specific reference to the source of the entire 'fake news' gambit (at least in this country) - Donald Trump.

There are numerous other examples. I did a quick search, trying to remember the threads where we discussed it. Not to mention lying reporters that actually lost their jobs over fake news like Brian Williams.

Well yes, they lost their jobs. That was my point. Legit news organizations know their business depends on the public trust. So they can't have people working for them that purposefully lie about what is happening.

Just like that list of lies of Trump's you posted that turned out to be mostly exaggerations or just Trump being wrong about something and not lying after all? Or even claiming he was breaking his promises when in fact it was the liberal interference that was stopping him from keeping his promises?

They aren't exaggerations to anyone but a rabid Trump supporter. And I'd wager a bet that if YOU or a relative of yours was the one Trump targeted on twitter and who was harrassed day in and out, including a threat they'd be pummeled to the ground and peed on, you'd have a different opinion about how 'exaggerated' they were.

I think rogue keeps a working list of the fake stories somewhere since this comes up often enough. I will see if he posts it for you.

eta: did a quick google search and found this for ya: https://dailycaller.com/2017/06/14/f...es-cnn-pushed/

OK, I'll take a look.

Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Pretty much.

Wouldn't it be better to to actually work to stop the problem than to just complain about how the 'other guys' don't want to stop the problem so we aren't going to either?

When do you suppose the problem will actually get solved as long as both sides of the debate refuse to try to make any improvements until the other guys do?

Jim

[Sparko]

ok! I see how you took it, and I apologize! I had no intent that be directed at you, or even anyone on this web site. My 'the one' as not a general reference but a specific reference to the source of the entire 'fake news' gambit (at least in this country) - Donald Trump.






Well yes, they lost their jobs. That was my point. Legit news organizations know their business depends on the public trust. So they can't have people working for them that purposefully lie about what is happening.




They aren't exaggerations to anyone but a rabid Trump supporter. And I'd wager a bet that if YOU or a relative of yours was the one Trump targeted on twitter and who was harrassed day in and out, including a threat they'd be pummeled to the ground and peed on, you'd have a different opinion about how 'exaggerated' they were.



OK, I'll take a look.

Jim

OK just randomly picking some stuff from the "definitive list of Trump lies" to show how they take minor exagerrations or misstatements and nitpick it into a lie.


Oooo! He was off by 4 times! What a lie!





ahem. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/u...ve-editor.html



see above. They try to make TWO lies out of the same basic statement!


Oh look! Three TIMES!


Really? That is a lie? That is a difference of opinion and a complete nitpick.


again, an exaggeration but is it a lie? I don't see any evidence for either view. and again, who cares?

The list is filled with such minutia and straining of gnats to call something a lie.

[One Bad Pig]

Wouldn't it be better to to actually work to stop the problem than to just complain about how the 'other guys' don't want to stop the problem so we aren't going to either?

When do you suppose the problem will actually get solved as long as both sides of the debate refuse to try to make any improvements until the other guys do?

Jim

Feel free to point out where I've only said one side needs to work on this issue. Making false insinuations and implying it's the other side which is being hypocritical, as you do here, isn't exactly making steps toward solving the problem either. It is a good way to tempt me to use more inflammatory language, if that's what you were aiming for.

[oxmixmudd]

OK just randomly picking some stuff from the "definitive list of Trump lies" to show how they take minor exagerrations or misstatements and nitpick it into a lie.


Oooo! He was off by 4 times! What a lie!

He was off by 44 times. Nixon has the all time record. The issue here is not just that Trump exaggerates, its that he has a psychotic need to be the best at EVERYTHING. To the point he makes stuff up constantly. Anybody else you'd be telling them they need to see a psychiatrist and work through it. Consider your reaction to Warren's claims she has Native American ancestry? Trump's exaggerations are Mt Everest vs Warren's Indian Mound, yet you and others have waxed eloquent for how many pages on how bad she is, yet excuse Trump each time!

So in your book it's ok to take credit for work already done by someone else? It'll get you fired from most jobs.

ahem. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/13/u...ve-editor.html

Not a problem? Really? Making up facts that don't exist? Is this not what you are calling Fake News?The above is not just an exaggeration or reinterpretation of the facts, it's made up from whole cloth!

see above. They try to make TWO lies out of the same basic statement!

If he told the lie twice does that not mean he lied twice? And look at the second one. He's accusing the nytimes of FAKE NEWS while he's making up stuff?!?!

Oh look! Three TIMES!

Yep, he told the same lie 3 times, 3 different ways.

Really? That is a lie? That is a difference of opinion and a complete nitpick.

Yeah, its a lie. It wasn't smooth. 'very smooth' != 'chaotic'. If he had an ounce of conscience but was trying to put a positive spin on it, he could have said, 'well we hit a few bumps along the way, but ...'

again, an exaggeration but is it a lie? I don't see any evidence for either view. and again, who cares?

I care. The man has to lie about everything. What that means Sparko is that if a project is going poorly, He's going to lie about it. If a meeting with a world leader went badly, He's going to lie about it. If a tax cut is going to blow the deficit out of the water, he's going to lie about it. If a tariff is going to decimate a domestic business, he's going to lie about it. If he cheated on his wife, he's going to lie about it. If his advisers are absolutely against his latest policy, he's going to lie about it. Need I go on?

The list is filled with such minutia and straining of gnats to call something a lie.

Only as seen by a rabid Trump supporter. What that list means is that we can't Trust anything Trump says about any program, any bill, any executive order, any foreign policy, and news story, any political candidate, ANYTHING he says - ever.



Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Feel free to point out where I've only said one side needs to work on this issue. Making false insinuations and implying it's the other side which is being hypocritical, as you do here, isn't exactly making steps toward solving the problem either. It is a good way to tempt me to use more inflammatory language, if that's what you were aiming for.

I don't need to point that out OBP, because my statement doesn't imply you insinuated that. My comment addresses the quote which you posted. It doesn't address you at all. The author of the quote is implying that it is hypocritical to address trump's issues w/o addressing his opponents issues. I would agree partially, except that Trump is always 1 order of magnitude worse than anyone else on nearly everything he does.

My point to him, the quote's author, and as a comment on that quote, is that he is justifying the high temperature on the trump side remaining high because of the high temperature on the other side. My point is that if both sides take that position, the problem can't be solved. So I am disagreeing with the implications of the quote.


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

ok! I see how you took it, and I apologize! I had no intent that be directed at you, or even anyone on this web site. My 'the one' as not a general reference but a specific reference to the source of the entire 'fake news' gambit (at least in this country) - Donald Trump.






Well yes, they lost their jobs. That was my point. Legit news organizations know their business depends on the public trust. So they can't have people working for them that purposefully lie about what is happening.




They aren't exaggerations to anyone but a rabid Trump supporter. And I'd wager a bet that if YOU or a relative of yours was the one Trump targeted on twitter and who was harrassed day in and out, including a threat they'd be pummeled to the ground and peed on, you'd have a different opinion about how 'exaggerated' they were.



OK, I'll take a look.

Jim

Thanks. What I see are mostly mistakes, caught by other members of the media, with retractions following. The worst in my mind was the editing of the video of the women's statements. And mischaracterizing them as calls for peace. That was bad. Very Bad. But, in the end, the media caught and corrected it. Even the source of the problem, CNN, corrected. This is the free press doing what it is supposed to do - policing itself. That is what professionals do. And when you get down to the bottom line, Trump's calls of Fake News are aimed at undermining that same free press that ultimately corrects itself.

When have you seen Donald Trump or his White house propaganda machine correct itself? Yet that is what Trump's goal is. To get you to hear his lies as truth, his propaganda as gospel, and to get you to ignore the self correcting and professional news organizations whose job it is to investigate and report what is really going on in the world, and to make sure the government can't control the information and spin on the information we have on what they are doing. And if intelligent people like yourself keep following him down his primrose path, that very important arm of our democracy which protects our freedoms by reporting what is really happening - the free press - will be seriously weakened or even neutered.


Jim