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Midterms and Discord
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWhy is THAT an issue? Flag burning is a legally protected act - as has been repeatedly affirmed by the courts.
I have to admit, I don't understand this extreme devotion to a piece of cloth. It's the thing the cloth represents that is important - not the cloth.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostUndocumented immigrants (or illegal immigrants) if you prefer, are barred from voting. They are not barred from volunteering to get out the vote, or stand on corners with campaign signs, or any number of other activities. They simply cannot vote.
As with De Santis earlier comment, her statement was politically stupid. It wasn't "wrong" or encouraging illegal activity, AFAICT.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostHorse hockey. In many instances, they are specifically targeting the women trying to get into that place of business, and attempting to intimidate or shame them into not going. Your difference is not much of a difference.
If they want to protest in front of the Senator's office, then that is quite OK.
I'm not "defending" anyone. I am pointing out your incorrect statements about the legality issue. Rude and boorish - no problem. Illegal? Not necessarily.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhen a flag is being burnt, the intention is not to denigrate the piece of cloth, but the thing it represents. I, in turn, have to admit why you don't see that.
However, this country is founded on a principle of freedom of speech and expression. You cannot honor that, and then say, "well, except for the flag - you can't be free to express what you wish with respect to the flag."The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postum foreigners can volunteer at campaigns but ILLEGAL foreigners? I don't think so.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey are not even supposed to be in the country much less volunteering in our elections. Pretty sure that is a great way to get arrested and deported.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey are not legally allowed to interfere with anyone entering or leaving the clinic.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd since it is a place of business, it is completely different than hounding some public official at a restaurant.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAND every abortion protest I know of around here is done legally with permits.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf they want to protest in front of the Senator's office, then that is quite OK.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostOf course it would depend on the local laws and statutes but generally causing a scene in public is illegal in most places.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd you are required to get permits before public protests and you can't block pedestrian or street traffic.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAnd you can't harass people. Especially not in a place of business.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe intent is not to denigrate what it represents - but to emphasize that what the flag actually represents is not being honored (in the opinion of most burners). I don't know anyone who takes a stand that freedom, liberty, and honor are things to be denigrated. I know MANY who feel the U.S. has fallen away from those principles, which is what they are attempting to say when they burn the flag. At least, many.
I'm sure there are also those who also simply want to say the U.S. sucks.
However, this country is founded on a principle of freedom of speech and expression. You cannot honor that, and then say, "well, except for the flag - you can't be free to express what you wish with respect to the flag."Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
sigpic
I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostShow me the law that says that an illegal immigrant cannot be volunteering at political events.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhat a load of codswallop. Generally those who burn flags are expressing hatred or contempt for the country and/or its government.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYa think?
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou're fighting against an argument I haven't made.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postwell the the one about them not being allowed in the country where the campaign office is located for one. They are illegally in the country. They can't legally do anything in the country. Just being here is breaking the law. They are illegal. illegal. duh.
But even those undocumented immigrants who cross the border illegally and go into hiding - while they broke the law crossing the border, there is still no law that says they cannot participate as a volunteer in pretty much anything. There IS a law that says they cannot vote. There are laws about not hiring them for work. There is no law that says they cannot volunteer. Engaging them is politically stupid - and it's dangerous for the undocumented immigrant who is exposing themselves - but it's not illegal.Last edited by carpedm9587; 10-25-2018, 08:51 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOf course not - which is why they stand in a gauntlet-type fashion and hurl insults and abuse at the women trying to enter. Not ALL protesters do this, of course, but then not all protesters accost Republicans in restaurants either. I'm still not seeing a difference. You cannot condemn one without condemning the other - at least not and remain consistent.
Interesting...I thought restaurants were places of business...
Come on Carp, you are really stretching now.
Perhaps there. But they ar enot all done that way.
If they want to protest anywhere, and they observe the law, that is quite OK.
A restaurant is not "in public." It's a private establishment. The owner makes the call, unless a law is being broken. And "causing a scene" is not necessarily illegal. You seem to be skating very close to "if I don't want to hear it, it's a scene."
You have this part wrong. You are required to get a permit IF your protest is going to block pedestrian or street traffic. Anyone can gather a group and stage a protest without a permit anywhere, as long as they do not block rights of way and do not create a danger. I can gather 20 of my friends tomorrow, make signs, and go picket on any street in downtown Burlington, so long as we do not block anyone's way and do not engage in verbal assault (the legal definition thereof). If I want to parade my protest down the center of Main Street, I need a permit.
I think you are not very clear on the law on this one, and are letting your emotions drive your posts.
Here is a page of various harassment laws in different states where verbally harassing someone or disturbing the peace are against the law and such actions as we are discussing would fall under those laws:
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/...cacyordinance/
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo I'm curious - what elections have been called into question as "illegitimate" by Democrats?
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI have never seen ANYONE hurl insults and abuse at the women. Have you ever been to an abortion clinic protest? It is all about wanting to help the women, not condemn them. yeesh.
https://rewire.news/article/2018/02/...ds-protesters/
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-clinics-in-wa
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8340471.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-abor...and-blockades/
I could post more...but if history repeats itself, non of these will convince, and I've used up enough time.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf they want to protest the restaurant for some reason, yes. But they are interfering with a government official who happens to be out trying to enjoy his private life at a restaurant. They can protest at HIS office.
Come on Carp, you are really stretching now.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostShow me one that is not.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey are not observing the law. They are disturbing the peace, verbally assaulting someone in a restaurant, harassing people, blocking traffic, etc.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt is a place of public accommodation. Read the civil rights act.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey are interfering with the business of the restaurant.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThey are blocking pedestrian traffic where they are gathering.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI say the same back to you. The laws of course vary depending on the location. But generally harassing someone out trying to enjoy themselves at a restaurant is illegal.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostHere is a page of various harassment laws in different states where verbally harassing someone or disturbing the peace are against the law and such actions as we are discussing would fall under those laws:
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/...cacyordinance/
So once again - my original post was not to defend the specific incidence - but to highlight that your objection was too broad and was excluding actions that would be considered perfectly legal - if not particularly civil.
And I am repeating myself far too much here. My point and argument have been clearly made. I'll leave you to the last word.Last edited by carpedm9587; 10-25-2018, 09:17 AM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe funny thing is, is that the democrats actually have reason to call the elections into question, not because the voting systems are somehow rigged, but because of the suppression tactics carried out by republicans all around the country. Once republicans take over a state legislature they immediately go to work enacting voter suppression laws and doing extreme gerrymandering of districts wherin even though more people vote democrat, just as is the case nationally, the state houses remain in republican control. In other words they cheat, it's the only way that they know they can win, and if they should lose they will charge the other side with cheating. They really have become a most unethical, undemocratic political party and now they have the best possible leader that an unethical, undemocratic party, could have.
1) Term limits (including the judiciary)
2) Getting big money out of politics (or at least making it completely visible)
3) Removing redistricting from partisan legislatures, or at least making approval a function of a multi-partisan, independent commission.
4) Tort reform
Only then do we have a hope of pushing for a balanced budget at all government levels, and perhaps getting out of this dysfunctional mess we have today.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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