First Native American POTUS?

[JimL]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]31619[/ATTACH]

Great, hope she does it. She has more intelligence in her little finger than Trump has in his yuuuuge brain. But first we have to actually drain the conservative swamp in the midterms.

[Leonhard]

GDP per Capita was climbing all the way through Obama's presidency.



Job growth was constant ever since the housing bubble collapsed. Likewise employment rate grew steadily as the market kept improving. Trump definitely didn't stop this trend, but I'm afraid most of the improvements to the market happened between 2010 and 2016.

The real thing we have to deal with is wage stagnation. Why are workers paid the same, even if their productivity is increasing?

[Sparko]

GDP per Capita was climbing all the way through Obama's presidency.



Job growth was constant ever since the housing bubble collapsed. Likewise employment rate grew steadily as the market kept improving. Trump definitely didn't stop this trend, but I'm afraid most of the improvements to the market happened between 2010 and 2016.

The real thing we have to deal with is wage stagnation. Why are workers paid the same, even if their productivity is increasing?

You should realize by now that statistics and data can be easily manipulated to show whatever trend you want to. that last chart seems very deceptive to me. Wages have only gone up 9% since 1973?? Really? Minimum wage in 1973 was $1.60. Today it is $7.25. That's like 450% right there not including the actual average wages. So you know there is a lot of manipulation going on in the background to get a figure of 9%.

I can tell you that the economy and me personally have done better in the last 2 years under Trump than in the last 8 years under Obama, or even before that. I didn't do so well under Bush either. And I am not even blaming Obama for the economy, that was because of the idiot bankers.

[Leonhard]

You should realize by now that statistics and data can be easily manipulated to show whatever trend you want to.

That's possible, btu that's a case that needs to be made.

I can tell you that the economy and me personally have done better in the last 2 years under Trump than in the last 8 years under Obama, or even before that.

I trust your personal testimony Sparko. I do believe things have been better, personally, for you for the past two years. Because that is the case. I don't agree that the economy of the US improved more under Trump than it did under Obama. The evidence just doesn't show that. I trust that you've experienced what you've done, but your testimony doesn't trump objective evidence.

I didn't do so well under Bush either. And I am not even blaming Obama for the economy, that was because of the idiot bankers.

Yeah it definitely wasn't Obama's fault. That bubble had been growing for years, and in many countries for that matter. People taking loans in a house, using that money to refurbish it, selling it for a higher value. Driving housing prices up exponentially. It was just idiocy. Pretty much printing money.

[Sparko]

That's possible, btu that's a case that needs to be made.

I edited my post to provide some.

I trust your personal testimony Sparko. I do believe things have been better, personally, for you for the past two years. Because that is the case. I don't agree that the economy of the US improved more under Trump than it did under Obama. The evidence just doesn't show that. I trust that you've experienced what you've done, but your testimony doesn't trump objective evidence.

Except I can attribute my gains to Trump directly. When he was elected, the stock market started rising and has continued to do so. My retirement account, which was floundering, has gained 20% since Trump was elected! And our company gave us all a significant raise this year and they said it was because of Trump. AND I got another 'raise' because of Trump's tax reduction. And the GDP is higher than it was under Obama. Higher than Obama said it could ever get again.

Yeah it definitely wasn't Obama's fault. That bubble had been growing for years, and in many countries for that matter. People taking loans in a house, using that money to refurbish it, selling it for a higher value. Driving housing prices up exponentially. It was just idiocy. Pretty much printing money.

Yep and it not only affected the USA but the entire world economy. And then Obama, instead of prosecuting those idiots, bailed them out with our tax money that we had to pay in despite having already lost a lot due to their carelessness.

[Leonhard]

I edited my post to provide some.

Wages have only gone up 9% since 1973?? Really? Minimum wage in 1973 was $1.60. Today it is $7.25. That's like 450% right there not including the actual average wages. So you know there is a lot of manipulation going on in the background to get a figure of 9%.

Yes, once you adjust for inflation, wages have only gone up 9%. Prices for everything have gone up due to inflation. That's the point. By allowing inflation, we slowly devalue money accumulated by big companies or rich people. This encourages them to reinvest that money and so the cycle the goes. It has the side effective of 'inflating' all numbers in the economy over time. Its a well known quantity, and by simply dividing by it you get a rough idea of how buying power is changing for people (with some caveats as I would say our lives have improved).

As you can see there was a strong inflation from the seventies until today. So all the pay raises are basically nullified.

Except I can attribute my gains to Trump directly.

I'm glad you can. And I don't doubt you Sparko. But you're a statistical sample of size one. I'm thinking about Trump and the US in general.

And the GDP is higher than it was under Obama. Higher than Obama said it could ever get again.

Yet the Lion's share of the recovery from the housing bubble was undeniably during Obama's presidency.

Yep and it not only affected the USA but the entire world economy. And then Obama, instead of prosecuting those idiots, bailed them out with our tax money that we had to pay in despite having already lost a lot due to their carelessness.

I definitely agree that those bankers should have gone bankrupt. Or the very least all the bankers should be getting a public nationally televised, biweekly spaking by the workers that got screwed over.

[Sparko]

Yes, once you adjust for inflation, wages have only gone up 9%. Prices for everything have gone up due to inflation. That's the point. By allowing inflation, we slowly devalue money accumulated by big companies or rich people. This encourages them to reinvest that money and so the cycle the goes. It has the side effective of 'inflating' all numbers in the economy over time. Its a well known quantity, and by simply dividing by it you get a rough idea of how buying power is changing for people (with some caveats as I would say our lives have improved).

As you can see there was a strong inflation from the seventies until today. So all the pay raises are basically nullified.

Generally raising wages CAUSES inflation Leonhard. They are related. The more a company has to pay in wages, the more they have to charge for their products and services. The wages go up, the prices go up, the buying power remains pretty much the same.

I'm glad you can. And I don't doubt you Sparko. But you're a statistical sample of size one. I'm thinking about Trump and the US in general.

I just told you that it affected my whole company (which employs over 500 people across 5 states.) And other people have said the same both in the news and here on Tweb. And as I said, the GDP is higher than ever, and you can see the stock market for yourself. And I actually LIVE over here, where you are just reading news articles, mostly from liberal sources.

Yet the Lion's share of the recovery from the housing bubble was undeniably during Obama's presidency.

Yeah. OVER EIGHT FREAKING YEARS.

I definitely agree that those bankers should have gone bankrupt. Or the very least all the bankers should be getting a public nationally televised, biweekly spaking by the workers that got screwed over.

[Leonhard]

Generally raising wages CAUSES inflation Leonhard. They are related. The more a company has to pay in wages, the more they have to charge for their products and services. The wages go up, the prices go up, the buying power remains pretty much the same.

I'd agree to an extent Sparko. The problem is that the productivity of people during the same period has pretty much doubles. One worker, with modern tools, can do the work that would have required two workers in 1970. And yet he's paid the same. I would have expected the worker's buying power to at least go up by 50%, if not actually double.

Something seems off to me.

I just told you that it affected my whole company (which employs over 500 people across 5 states.) And other people have said the same both in the news and here on Tweb. And as I said, the GDP is higher than ever, and you can see the stock market for yourself.

I'm glad. Still not a representative sample, sorry. I am glad for you Sparko. I'm just looking at the evidence.

And I actually LIVE over here, where you are just reading news articles, mostly from liberal sources.

I haven't been citing any liberal sources here. The information about inflation came from the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation, and the graph of GDP per Capita is from this website https://tradingeconomics.com/.

Yeah. OVER EIGHT FREAKING YEARS.

Yup, it took a while for the market to swallow the housing bubble bursting. It was significantly bigger than the IT bubble of the nineties.

[Sparko]

I'd agree to an extent Sparko. The problem is that the productivity of people during the same period has pretty much doubles. One worker, with modern tools, can do the work that would have required two workers in 1970. And yet he's paid the same. I would have expected the worker's buying power to at least go up by 50%, if not actually double.

more people demand more stuff at lower prices. I remember we paid something like $400 for a color TV in the 1970s, which would be like $2000 in today's money. Yet I buy a TV for $200 today, and it will be a 40 inch flat screen.

Buy the way, this is a better indication of inflation over the years:

I'm glad. Still not a representative sample, sorry. I am glad for you Sparko. I'm just looking at the evidence.

no, you are handwaving away the evidence.

[Leonhard]

more people demand more stuff at lower prices. I remember we paid something like $400 for a color TV in the 1970s, which would be like $2000 in today's money. Yet I buy a TV for $200 today, and it will be a 40 inch flat screen.

That is a good point actually, now that I think of it.

Buy the way, this is a better indication of inflation over the years:

Look at the y-axis Sparko. It says 'Inflation Rate'. That's basically how much inflation happened that year. To get the accumulated inflation you'd have to integrate them together. For each year take that rate, add 1 to it, multiply them together to get the accumulated change.

It was such a graph I showed you.

no, you are handwaving away the evidence.

Saying that your, personal living situation, or that of your company, is just that, personal testimony, is not to handwave away the evidence Sparko. That's just fact. It doesn't mean you, or your company didn't benefit from Trump's election. You might have. I'm just looking at the evidence.

[Littlejoe]

That is a good point actually, now that I think of it.

There are a lot of things cheaper IMO, so I think buying power has increased at least in some ways. I remember my dad buying the first color TV I had ever seen in 1971, he paid $300 for a 21 inch set. Cell phones got much cheaper as technology and mass production got more efficient.

Saying that your, personal living situation, or that of your company, is just that, personal testimony, is not to handwave away the evidence Sparko. That's just fact. It doesn't mean you, or your company didn't benefit from Trump's election. You might have. I'm just looking at the evidence.

The company I support (they contract out there desktop IT support so I'm not paid directly by them) raised their starting wage from $14.21 to $16 per hour. They are a multi-national Health insurance provider with offices all over the US. The Mexican Frozen Food factory my son works at raised their starting wages from $11 to $13.50 an hour, and raised the top salary from $15.50 to $17. It's been good for a lot of people I know so far...

[Sparko]

That is a good point actually, now that I think of it.



Look at the y-axis Sparko. It says 'Inflation Rate'. That's basically how much inflation happened that year. To get the accumulated inflation you'd have to integrate them together. For each year take that rate, add 1 to it, multiply them together to get the accumulated change.

I know Leonhard. That was my point. using some "Accumulated inflation rate" is manipulating the data to make a point. Wow! look how much inflation has gone up! Did they use an accumulated or actual wage increase? No! they "adjusted it" for "inflation" in order to minimize that line. But what year did they adjust for? Then they stuck them on the same chart.

The truth is, that inflation has been rising at a pretty low and steady rate, usually around 4%. Wages have been going up around the same rate. We can generally afford the same things today as we did 20 and 30 years ago. Housing might be another issue in parts of the country where the prices has way outstripped wages, like in San Francisco. But you know why? Because of Silicon Valley, where they pay outrageous wages to tech workers, who then buy houses in San Francisco, driving up the prices for everyone else who is on a normal salary so they can't afford the houses. So you see, increased wages causes more inflation.

[rogue06]

more people demand more stuff at lower prices. I remember we paid something like $400 for a color TV in the 1970s, which would be like $2000 in today's money. Yet I buy a TV for $200 today, and it will be a 40 inch flat screen.

Buy the way, this is a better indication of inflation over the years:

Similar thing with computers. A computer with Windows 95 typically set you back at least $800.

Speaking of the 70s, back when Ford was president he said he wanted a watch with a built in calculator for Christmas. His wife Betty nixed the idea saying it was too expensive and extravagant. Yet by 2000 and probably earlier you saw kindergartners and first graders walking around with them.

[Cow Poke]

Similar thing with computers. A computer with Windows 95 typically set you back at least $800.

Speaking of the 70s, back when Ford was president he said he wanted a watch with a built in calculator for Christmas. His wife Betty nixed the idea saying it was too expensive and extravagant. Yet by 2000 and probably earlier you saw kindergartners and first graders walking around with them.

Moore's Law: (published in an article April 19, 1965 in Electronics Magazine)

[Sparko]

Similar thing with computers. A computer with Windows 95 typically set you back at least $800.

Speaking of the 70s, back when Ford was president he said he wanted a watch with a built in calculator for Christmas. His wife Betty nixed the idea saying it was too expensive and extravagant. Yet by 2000 and probably earlier you saw kindergartners and first graders walking around with them.

Cars went the other way though. I bought a mid-sized car for $12,000 in 1986. Today the same car would cost me $30,000 - but you do get more gadgets standard now, like A/C, electric locks and windows, power steering and stuff like that you used to have to pay extra for (but was in that $12,000 car)

Generally car prices are linked to average wages. An average car usually costs an average year's wage.