Free Health Care For All...

[Sparko]

No.

yes.

No. But you certainly interpret what I say that way a great deal. There's not much I can do about that, except to tell you (again) that you are reading things into what I said that I did not put there.

I only call it like I see it.

The VA certainly needs attention. The data does not support the claim "it is a failing and corrupt system." It does support the presence of mismanagement, but it does not support the claim "from the top down, which implies "throughout the VA." It DOES support that there is mismanagement in multiple places, not just one. I doubt that all of the VA is corrupt. Indeed, my own experiences with the VA shows that there are at least some parts of the VA that are not. We have evidence of problems from multiple locations and at multiple levels - not all locations and all levels. There is also evidence that people are dying as a result, which needs to be addressed.

This is known as "equivocating" -- basically trying to wiggle out of it by means of nitpicking e.g. "not ALL of it is corrupt/mismanaged"
I never claimed it was all corrupt or mismanaged. As a whole system it is though. I am sure there are plenty of people in the VA who genuinely care about the vets and try to do their best. But they are hobbled by the bureaucracy and inefficiency of the system.

Another government-run healthcare system that has problems, inefficiences, and some unscrupulous members. I have not said otherwise. I reject the inference that it is entirely corrupt, entirely inefficient.

Which nobody claimed.

[Sparko]

I say that you never sign up for medicare Sparko, pay for private insurance. You conservatives are like one of your hero's, Ayn Rand, they rant and rave about government and government programs, until they need it themselves.

Jim, I am saying that even when I do go on social security I still have to buy private insurance to "cover the gaps" - to pay for drugs, private doctor visits, dentists, vision.

[carpedm9587]

yes.

You guys do love to tell me what I think/feel...

You're wrong, but history suggests anything I say about what I actually think/feel will be rejected in favor of your already determined conclusion, so...

I only call it like I see it.

That much is clear. It is also clear that you believe your perspective is pretty much always right, even when you are clearly trying to read someone else's mind. IMO, it's kind of a pointless way to discuss things.

This is known as "equivocating" -- basically trying to wiggle out of it by means of nitpicking e.g. "not ALL of it is corrupt/mismanaged"
I never claimed it was all corrupt or mismanaged. As a whole system it is though. I am sure there are plenty of people in the VA who genuinely care about the vets and try to do their best. But they are hobbled by the bureaucracy and inefficiency of the system.

No - it's called "refusing to come to conclusions not supported by the evidence." I realize, in this day and age, wholesale assumption and accepting anything that aligns with a pre-existing bias is commonplace. I prefer to base my beliefs and observations on demonstrable evidence.

Which nobody claimed.

Go back and reread your posts, Sparko. If you did not intend to convey that message, your use of language was sloppy at best. And when I post that the evidence does not support a claims that the agency is a "failing and corrupt system" and it has been "mismanaged from the top down," I am told this is "equivocating."

I think my posts were fairly clear. The VA has problems in many areas. It needs attention. There is clearly corruption present in some areas. The bad apples need to be weeded out. It could benefit from a systems analysis. We have stories that highlight bad things done by perhaps a few hundred people. The VA employs over 377,000 people. Painting all of these people with the same brush on the basis of the available evidence is simply not something I am willing to do. If that is "equivocating," so be it. Guilt assigned when guilt is shown.

[Sparko]

You guys do love to tell me what I think/feel...

You're wrong, but history suggests anything I say about what I actually think/feel will be rejected in favor of your already determined conclusion, so...



That much is clear. It is also clear that you believe your perspective is pretty much always right, even when you are clearly trying to read someone else's mind. IMO, it's kind of a pointless way to discuss things.



No - it's called "refusing to come to conclusions not supported by the evidence." I realize, in this day and age, wholesale assumption and accepting anything that aligns with a pre-existing bias is commonplace. I prefer to base my beliefs and observations on demonstrable evidence.



Go back and reread your posts, Sparko. If you did not intend to convey that message, your use of language was sloppy at best. And when I post that the evidence does not support a claims that the agency is a "failing and corrupt system" and it has been "mismanaged from the top down," I am told this is "equivocating."

I think my posts were fairly clear. The VA has problems in many areas. It needs attention. There is clearly corruption present in some areas. The bad apples need to be weeded out. It could benefit from a systems analysis. We have stories that highlight bad things done by perhaps a few hundred people. The VA employs over 377,000 people. Painting all of these people with the same brush on the basis of the available evidence is simply not something I am willing to do. If that is "equivocating," so be it. Guilt assigned when guilt is shown.

Please tell me where I said that everyone in the VA was corrupt and mismanaged. You are just trying to find something to nitpick so you can agree and disagree at the same time. More fence sitting. So basically you agree that the VA is mismanaged and inefficient and needs work, but not ALL of it is. Correct? That is fine by me. It gets my initial point across.

[carpedm9587]

Please tell me where I said that everyone in the VA was corrupt and mismanaged.

I've answered this already, in my previous post.

You are just trying to find something to nitpick so you can agree and disagree at the same time.

No - I am actually agreeing with some of what you said, and disagreeing with other elements.

More fence sitting.

Fence-sitting is a description of someone unwilling to take a position. I think my position has been fairly clearly articulated.

So basically you agree that the VA is mismanaged and inefficient and needs work, but not ALL of it is. Correct?

I believe parts of the VA suffer from mismanagement and inefficiency - the evidence supports that observation. The evidence does NOT support claims that ALL, or even MOST of the VA has that problem.

That is fine by me. It gets my initial point across.

At this point, I have no idea what that "initial point" was.

[JimL]

Jim, I am saying that even when I do go on social security I still have to buy private insurance to "cover the gaps" - to pay for drugs, private doctor visits, dentists, vision.

Yes you do Sparko, you still have to buy those supplementals in order to reduce your overall costs otherwise. Medicare only pays for 80% of your medical. But you don't have to buy the supplemental Insurance though, you can just pay all of the extra costs out of your own pocket if you would prefer. It'll most likely end up costing you a whole lot more though. What do you want "free health care?" Too bad Trump and your republican party couldn't come up with a plan to make health care better and cheaper like they promised they could, and would, eh?

[Sparko]

Yes you do Sparko, you still have to buy those supplementals in order to reduce your overall costs otherwise. Medicare only pays for 80% of your medical. But you don't have to buy the supplemental Insurance though, you can just pay all of the extra costs out of your own pocket if you would prefer. It'll most likely end up costing you a whole lot more though. What do you want "free health care?" Too bad Trump and your republican party couldn't come up with a plan to make health care better and cheaper like they promised they could, and would, eh?

What? You don't even have a clue what Medicare is or what it pays, do you?

[Cow Poke]

I believe parts of the VA suffer from mismanagement and inefficiency - the evidence supports that observation. The evidence does NOT support claims that ALL, or even MOST of the VA has that problem.

If you shut your eyes even a little tighter, you won't see any problems at all, and you can issue them a clean bill of health.

[Sparko]

If you shut your eyes even a little tighter, you won't see any problems at all, and you can issue them a clean bill of health.

His equivocating is getting pretty smelly. He tries so hard not to give up a single debate point doesn't he?

The initial impetus for this current discussion was you mentioning the VA as an example of Government inefficiency and mismanagement in healthcare. I said I had forgotten that when I was mentioning reasons why I did not trust the Government to come up with a good socialized healthcare plan. So carp demand proof! We mention the scandal, etc. but he doesn't buy it! so we give him MORE evidence, but then carp has to recharacterize what we said as "the entire kit and kaboodle is corrupt!" in an attempt to dismiss our initial claim that it is an example of a poorly government healthcare system.

It's kind of funny if it didn't waste so much time.

[Cow Poke]

His equivocating is getting pretty smelly. He tries so hard not to give up a single debate point doesn't he?

The initial impetus for this current discussion was you mentioning the VA as an example of Government inefficiency and mismanagement in healthcare. I said I had forgotten that when I was mentioning reasons why I did not trust the Government to come up with a good socialized healthcare plan. So carp demand proof! We mention the scandal, etc. but he doesn't buy it! so we give him MORE evidence, but then carp has to recharacterize what we said as "the entire kit and kaboodle is corrupt!" in an attempt to dismiss our initial claim that it is an example of a poorly government healthcare system.

It's kind of funny if it didn't waste so much time.

And the problems have been described as "systemic". We've actually had a number of vets literally die while waiting for care, and when called on to fix the 'waiting list' problem, some geniuses (genii?) found a way to doctor the lists to make it 'look better'.

Failed leadership at Veterans Administration put patients at risk, watchdog reports



The VA's troubled history

Billions spent to fix VA didn't solve problems, made some issues worse

Growing evidence points to systemic troubles in VA healthcare system

Report Finds Systemic Problems With VA Wait Lists

Managing Risks and Improving VA Health Care

'Culture of Complacency:' Investigators Fault VA Leadership for Medical Facility's 'Systemic' Failures

VA has 'systemic' problem of shredding benefit claims



VA IG finds 'systemic' problems

Deaths, Fraud Allegations and an Inquiry Into a Long Island V.A. Hospital

[carpedm9587]

If you shut your eyes even a little tighter, you won't see any problems at all, and you can issue them a clean bill of health.

Probably. But I prefer to confront problem rather than ignore them or pretend they don't exist. I also prefer not to magnify problems beyond what the evidence supports in order to hold a particular prejudice. As I have now noted multiple times, some aspects of the VA need attention. There are clearly problems. I have never said otherwise.

[Cow Poke]

Probably. But I prefer to confront problem rather than ignore them or pretend they don't exist. I also prefer not to magnify problems beyond what the evidence supports in order to hold a particular prejudice. As I have now noted multiple times, some aspects of the VA need attention. There are clearly problems. I have never said otherwise.

Sheeeeesh... I carpetbombed you with evidence!

[carpedm9587]

Sheeeeesh... I carpetbombed you with evidence!

CP, look at your "carpet bomb." Read the stories and ask yourself, "how many people do these stories identify?" At best, it is a few hundred people involved with the scandals reported. Even if I grant you a few thousand people, which is a stretch, the VA employs over 377 thousand people. Even if 3,000 of them are demonstrably involved, that's 1% of the VA. That leaves 99% good people doing their jobs and helping others.

Sorry, but I'm not going to throw 374 thousand people under the bus because 1% of their colleagues (if that) have been shown to be complicit in inefficiencies and even corruption. You have not presented data that shows the "corruption" or "inefficiency" is in every state, in every hospital, in every administration, etc.

Is there a problem? Yep. Several of them, according to the articles. Do we need better leadership and management? No question about it or argument about it: yes. Does it justify a broadside against the VA and it's people? No. As with most groups, most of it is probably good people doing the best they can for those they serve. They deserve our respect and thanks, until it can be shown that the problem is bigger and more widespread than the smattering of articles/problems that list you sent indicates.

The media loves stories that get eyeballs. Sometimes, real people doing their best get skewered as a consequence. I won't be part of that. I understand Sparko has an issue with that. Frankly, Sparko appears to have an issue with pretty much anything I post, so I have long since tuned out his personal attacks and just try to focus on the arguments in play. I refuse to pig-pile people because it's "politically correct" to do so. Show me evidence that the problem extends beyond a few hundred or few thousand people, and I'll join the "bandwagon." Otherwise, I tend to prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. Too much harm has been done to good people in the name of politics.

[Cow Poke]

CP, look at your "carpet bomb." Read the stories and ask yourself, "how many people do these stories identify?"

Carpe, look at my "carpet bomb", how many times is it indicated that the problem is SYSTEMIC, and even the VA itself says the problems are SYSTEMIC. Shall I fetch you a definition for SYSTEMIC?

[Cow Poke]

...Does it justify a broadside against the VA and it's people?

Here you go, again. Nobody ever said anything about "its people". It's typical government inefficiency, which is why it was listed as an example in the first place.