Dem's New Slogan....

[carpedm9587]

YES!!!!!! And, unless it's an extraordinarily close vote tally - it doesn't even matter!

It may be technically false, but in practice, they're not going to hold up the announcement of the vote tally unless, indeed, it's a really close election. BECAUSE IT WOULDN'T MATTER!

Your focus, as with many others, appears to be about the impact on the vote. My focus is on the impact in the voter. I know how I would feel being denied the opportunity to vote. I am not willing to do that to someone else without just cause.

Ah, you've been everywhere else, eh? (kidding)

Your "kidding" betrays a logical flaw. To substantiate the claim, "not the same everywhere" I do not need to be "everywhere." I just need to show it is not the same in at least one other place and I can validly claim "it is not the same everywhere." I can assure you, I've been to at least one other place...

This same error happens all the time in discussions about god. To prove an omnipresent god does not exist, I do not have to "be everywhere." I just need to prove that god is not right here right now, and that god can no longer be claimed to be "omnipresent."

[Sparko]

THAT explains a LOT!!!!! (kidding) (kinda)



After 911, I was almost uniformly singled out for additional screening, and couldn't figure out why. One day, I happened to get a TSA screener who seemed like a decent enough fellow, and we were kinda joking back and forth because there was a "hold up" due to their body scanner acting up. I asked him (kinda with a wink and a nod) if he could PLEASE tell me why I always get singled out, and he leaned over and, in a stage whisper, said, "Because your MIDDLE NAME is on your ID, but only your middle INITIAL is on your boarding pass!" Simple fix!

When I went for the Global Entry/TSA precheck, they noticed that my middle name was on my application but not on my Passport, so I had to change the application to match the passport. And make sure my boarding passes all used the same version or I could not get the TSA precheck.

sheesh.

[carpedm9587]

That's a "feel good" answer, Carpe.

No - it's a constitutional answer, though "how I would feel" is definitely part of my motivation.

There's that word again --- one of those words that makes it sound noble NOT doing the right thing.

It is noble to do everything possible to ensure eligible voters are able to vote and have their vote counted.

What would be made worse?

Denying the vote to more people then you prevent from voting illicitly. For example, if the solution blocks 500,000 valid voters from voting to protect against 200 illicit votes (recall that the "less than 2000" number was over a period of 20 years, or 10 major election cycles), I would consider the solution "making things worse."

If you say so. I'm going for a swim.

Enjoy - I'm going to write that course I've been putting off...

[carpedm9587]

My passport just has my middle initial I believe. But there will always be some outliers like you that have a hard time. You can't fix every variation. There will always be a percentage of citizens that can't vote because of some problem with their documentation. That will always be a small percentage of the population. You can't make laws based on their problems.

Agreed - but you can examine the law in terms of "what problem is it trying to solve?" and "what problems will it create?" If it creates a bigger problem than it solves, it seems reasonable/rational to try a different approach.

[Sparko]

Agreed - but you can examine the law in terms of "what problem is it trying to solve?" and "what problems will it create?" If it creates a bigger problem than it solves, it seems reasonable/rational to try a different approach.

You will have to show that it is causing a problem. Are these people voting now? How do the polls keep track of them if they have no ID? What stops them from voting more than once or at different polling places? How do you know there is no voter fraud happening if they are not tracking voters?

[carpedm9587]

You will have to show that it is causing a problem. Are these people voting now? How do the polls keep track of them if they have no ID? What stops them from voting more than once or at different polling places? How do you know there is no voter fraud happening if they are not tracking voters?

I believe I have. 200,000 in Wisconsin in 2016, 100,000 in Tennessee in 2012, and there are multiple other studies from multiple other sources about different states and elections. They are fairly consistent: voterID laws (as they have been implemented) have disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of voters to protect us against a threat that cannot be shown to exceed a few hundred illicit votes per voting cycle. That doesn't mean it has to be that way or that VoterID laws are bad. It means they are being badly implemented. Hence my suggestions.

[Cow Poke]

No - it's a constitutional answer...

Specific citation, please.

[carpedm9587]

Specific citation, please.

As far as I know, all of the voting rights outlined in the constitution are in amendments, not in the original constitution. They include the 15th, 17th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, and 26th amendments.

Interestingly, not a single one of those amendments says anything about citizenship or the need to prove identity. They primary set out that blocking voting based on race, ethnicity or servitude (15th), sex (19th), or failure to pay taxes (24th) is unconstitutional, and that anyone 18 or older can vote (26th). The 17th is about election of Senators and the 23rd about voting rights in D.C.

[Cow Poke]

Your "kidding" betrays a logical flaw.

My "kidding" was kidding - pure and simple - your trying to make it into something it's not betrays a ... um... a something. So there!

[lilpixieofterror]

Not what I said - or thought.

Pretty much is what you implied.

[lilpixieofterror]

No one has a constitutional right/privilege/responsibility to fly a plane, drive a car, or anything of the other things you list. We DO have such for voting.

And I don't know where you live, but I don't need an ID to enter a federal building around here. I just need to go through the body scanner.

Never heard of freedom of movement? Anyway, I have to present an ID almost every day and do wonder how one is able to do everyday things without one. Guess keeping them poor is a way to ensure they vote democrat?

[lilpixieofterror]

And there is a segment of our population that is functioning without IDs and has for most of its life. These are the people about whom I am concerned.

So keeping them dumb and poor is a good way to ensure they keep voting democrat. Is this really the argument you want to go with?

[rogue06]

And there is a segment of our population that is functioning without IDs and has for most of its life. These are the people about whom I am concerned.

Not sure how they can. You need one to get a job. You need one to get government assistance. You need one to get a credit card or open a savings/checking account.

[Sparko]

I believe I have. 200,000 in Wisconsin in 2016, 100,000 in Tennessee in 2012, and there are multiple other studies from multiple other sources about different states and elections. They are fairly consistent: voterID laws (as they have been implemented) have disenfranchised hundreds of thousands of voters to protect us against a threat that cannot be shown to exceed a few hundred illicit votes per voting cycle. That doesn't mean it has to be that way or that VoterID laws are bad. It means they are being badly implemented. Hence my suggestions.

You didn't answer any of my questions. (clarifications)

Are these people voting now (in states where there are no voterID laws)? How do the polls keep track of them if they have no ID? What stops them from voting more than once or at different polling places? How do you know there is no voter fraud happening if they are not tracking voters?

[Cow Poke]

Not sure how they can. You need one to get a job. You need one to get government assistance. You need one to get a credit card or open a savings/checking account.

But, but, but... they HAVE to exist, or there's no reason to opposed voter ID laws! I WANT voter ID laws, but you simply CAN'T because of THEM!