Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[Charles]

Probably true. I doubt we're going to see eye-to-eye on this. There is simply no way that I am going to see enforcing a combination of laws that force separation of families as defensible, especially when no effort is made to track them for eventual reunion, and especially when the previous known administrations specifically chose to make an exception to enforcing this combination of laws in this specific circumstance for humanitarian reasons. Trump is many things - but "humanitarian" is not one of them.

That is very well put. In my view you simply cannot justify policies that will no doubt cause so much pain to innocent children. You can use whatever words or strategies or point to whatever circumstances. Nothing can justify this as a general policy.

[carpedm9587]

That is very well put. In my view you simply cannot justify policies that will no doubt cause so much pain to innocent children. You can use whatever words or strategies or point to whatever circumstances. Nothing can justify this as a general policy.

To be fair, Charles, I am not sure the "catch and release" model works all that well either. It seems to me there are two humanitarian choices: 1) establish detainment locations that are not prisons where families can live together until their case is adjudicated - and perhaps fast-track those cases, or 2) the model I proposed earlier of simply busing ALL illegal crossers to a legal crossing point, and returning them to their country of origin with an invitation to "get in line" to be considered for entry. The former can be done humanely, but costs us money. The latter puts the crossers in a reasonably populated area (most border crossings are near towns) and the fact that, by crossing illegally, all they did was put themselves further back in the waiting line, might itself serve as a deterrent to illegal crossing. Or perhaps a combination of these two (detention for those that need immediate medical assistance, escort to an exit point for the rest.

[Charles]

To be fair, Charles, I am not sure the "catch and release" model works all that well either. It seems to me there are two humanitarian choices: 1) establish detainment locations that are not prisons where families can live together until their case is adjudicated - and perhaps fast-track those cases, or 2) the model I proposed earlier of simply busing ALL illegal crossers to a legal crossing point, and returning them to their country of origin with an invitation to "get in line" to be considered for entry. The former can be done humanely, but costs us money. The latter puts the crossers in a reasonably populated area (most border crossings are near towns) and the fact that, by crossing illegally, all they did was put themselves further back in the waiting line, might itself serve as a deterrent to illegal crossing. Or perhaps a combination of these two (detention for those that need immediate medical assistance, escort to an exit point for the rest.

Not sure why you would think I would be opposed to your suggestions. They are far better than much of what I have seen elsewhere. I have suggested something that partly resembles 1 before.

[Cow Poke]

Good point

But it's so hard not to, sometimes! I've actually typed a non-response like that, then thought... what the heck....

delete.jpg

[Cow Poke]

To be fair, Charles, I am not sure the "catch and release" model works all that well either. It seems to me there are two humanitarian choices: 1) establish detainment locations that are not prisons where families can live together until their case is adjudicated - and perhaps fast-track those cases, or 2) the model I proposed earlier of simply busing ALL illegal crossers to a legal crossing point, and returning them to their country of origin with an invitation to "get in line" to be considered for entry. The former can be done humanely, but costs us money. The latter puts the crossers in a reasonably populated area (most border crossings are near towns) and the fact that, by crossing illegally, all they did was put themselves further back in the waiting line, might itself serve as a deterrent to illegal crossing. Or perhaps a combination of these two (detention for those that need immediate medical assistance, escort to an exit point for the rest.

Something else that would help a whole lot is to have an actual comprehensive plan and PUBLICIZE it, so these poor folks don't get all the way to the border only to find out the policy has changed again.

[carpedm9587]

Not sure why you would think I would be opposed to your suggestions. They are far better than much of what I have seen elsewhere. I have suggested something that partly resembles 1 before.

I actually had no idea whether you would or would not agree. I was simply presenting part of the "other side."

[carpedm9587]

But it's so hard not to, sometimes! I've actually typed a non-response like that, then thought... what the heck....

[ATTACH=CONFIG]29412[/ATTACH]

It should have read, "since this response does not accurately reflect what I said, there is nothing for me to respond to beyond noting that fact."

[carpedm9587]

Something else that would help a whole lot is to have an actual comprehensive plan and PUBLICIZE it, so these poor folks don't get all the way to the border only to find out the policy has changed again.

Agreed. But I don't think this administration or Congress is capable of that. They are not the first - neither has any administration or Congress in my memory. Reagan had what I thought was a viable start - but no follow-through.

[Cow Poke]

Agreed. But I don't think this administration or Congress is capable of that. They are not the first - neither has any administration or Congress in my memory. Reagan had what I thought was a viable start - but no follow-through.

It's simply not going to happen - the border crisis is too valuable in fundraising, campaigning and one-up-manship. (or, probably more accurately, one-down-manship)

[Cow Poke]

It should have read, "since this response does not accurately reflect what I said, there is nothing for me to respond to beyond noting that fact."

Hey, that's good! I might have to borrow that.

[Tassman]

Again, this sounds like a case of special pleading to me. Nothing that happened under Obama counts, but anything that happens under Trump's administration is entirely and directly his fault. For just enforcing the laws already on the books!

It's fine to have laws that are unjust and harm children, just as long as nobody enforces them. And when they do, THEY are the bad guys.

https://www.politifact.com/punditfac...-families-was/

[Tassman]

Can you dial down the drama just a tad and show where I'm "attempting to justify it"?

No "drama" that's not warranted. Children have been deliberately separated from their parents and many will never be reunited. Trump made separating families a matter of standard practice...zero toleration...Obama did not. And yet you seem to be promoting a moral equivalence, in short "justifying it": "it's all a mess", there's fault on both sides"

[Starlight]

So with the news today that a child died in ICE detention due to negligent care, we're up to:

- A child dead
- A child sexually abused by someone already known to be a problem
- Failure to comply with the existing court order to reunite children and parents
- A new court order to cease dosing the children with sedatives

Where does the madness end? Make America Grieve Again.

[Cow Poke]

No "drama" that's not warranted.

yuh, sure

Children have been deliberately separated from their parents and many will never be reunited. Trump made separating families a matter of standard practice...zero toleration...Obama did not. And yet you seem to be promoting a moral equivalence, in short "justifying it": "it's all a mess", there's fault on both sides",

It is a mess. There is responsibility on both sides. The underlying problem is that we have no comprehensive immigration policy. It would take BOTH SIDES to fix that.

in much the same way that Trump did in blaming both sides during the Charlottesville riot. This is not acceptable.

So, pitch a little hissy.

I hate what's happening on the border. It IS Trump's ballgame now. BOTH sides need to work together to fix the problem, but you would simply rather hyperventilate and point fingers. That does not serve the children well at all.

[carpedm9587]

Hey, that's good! I might have to borrow that.

With appropriate credit...