Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[oxmixmudd]

So now you are slandering your fellow Christians Jim?

No seer. When my fellow Christians ignore the words of Christ on issues as important as these, I have no choice but to speak. If we follow Christ, we must care for the poor, not feed them to the drug cartels and gangs so we can feel a little safer in our borders. There really is no debate on that. The only debate that exists is can we build a responsible government policy concerning the border without feeding the poor to the cartels and the gangs.

Jim

[Starlight]

Starlight: The US is the laughingstock of Europe and the rest of the world!
Sparko: Here I am in Europe and they say different agree it is, but I blame their media.

This was actually a more accurate representation of what your post said.

Sparko: They don't like illegal immigrants either.
Starlight: well they have a reason not to. But the US doesn't!

Yup. And that's true. Germany has a proper welfare state, so there's substantial differences in the way immigrants use welfare. In the US, illegal immigrants can't use the welfare system or benefit from government payouts... contrary to idiotic right-wing scaremongering.

I'm still waiting to see what you'll answer to Terraceth's question about whether your relatives voted for the far-right anti-immigrant party beloved of neo-Nazis, so we can all know the true colors of your relatives and how (un)representative their opinions are of the German people as a whole.

[seer]

No seer. When my fellow Christians ignore the words of Christ on issues as important as these, I have no choice but to speak. If we follow Christ, we must care for the poor, not feed them to the drug cartels and gangs so we can feel a little safer in our borders. There really is no debate on that. The only debate that exists is can we build a responsible government policy concerning the border without feeding the poor to the cartels and the gangs.

Jim

Nonsense Jim, I have and do help the poor. Let me tell you from experience. My son had about ten friends who had good paying jobs in roofing and construction. They all lost their jobs to illegals who were willing to work for less than minimum and live 20 people to an apartment. We need to focus on our own poor and working poor. There are literally millions and millions south of the border who could qualify for asylum. We just can not assimilate or afford them. We need to worry about Chicago and Baltimore not San Salvador. So yes my priorities are with American citizens. BTW here is my Church feeding the poor: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...7763-My-Church

[oxmixmudd]

Nonsense Jim, I have and do help the poor. Let me tell you from experience. My son had about ten friends who had good paying jobs in roofing and construction. They all lost their jobs to illegals who were willing to work for less than minimum and live 20 people to an apartment. We need to focus on our own poor and working poor. There are literally millions and millions south of the border who could qualify for asylum. We just can not assimilate or afford them. We need to worry about Chicago and Baltimore not San Salvador. So yes my priorities are with American citizens. BTW here is my Church feeding the poor: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...7763-My-Church

I applaud any and all good things you have done for the poor seer. I'm nowhere saying that you or other Christian here have not done similar things.

But there is a massive false dichotomy here seer. We don't have to abandon the poor here to have policies that are fair and just and merciful at the border.

And a truly compassionate person can't care only for those that live here, and not for those that do not. So open up your heart to the people for whom the current policies are a death sentence. Think about how we can work to tighten up the borders against truly evil people that would steal their way here while at the same time helping those people outside our borders whose lives hang in the balance against those same evil people. Trumps way is heartless and callous. Don't follow the conservative crowd in adopting that same attitude towards those people. That may be Trump's way, but it has never been and never will be our Lord's way.

Jim

[seer]

I applaud any and all good things you have done for the poor seer. I'm nowhere saying that you or other Christian here have not done similar things.

But there is a massive false dichotomy here seer. We don't have to abandon the poor here to have policies that are fair and just and merciful at the border.

And a truly compassionate person can't care only for those that live here, and not for those that do not. So open up your heart to the people for whom the current policies are a death sentence. Think about how we can work to tighten up the borders against truly evil people that would steal their way here while at the same time helping those people outside our borders whose lives hang in the balance against those same evil people. Trumps way is heartless and callous. Don't follow the conservative crowd in adopting that same attitude towards those people. That may be Trump's way, but it has never been and never will be our Lord's way.

Jim

Sorry Jim, I don't agree, we have limited resources, we simply can't take in all those who could possibly qualify. Half the third world would flow in. My priority is for my fellow countryman. And there is nothing explicit in the teachings of Jesus that says otherwise.

[lilpixieofterror]

From what I understand, these legal ports of entry are far more dangerous and in fact less likely to result in a successful plea for asylum. The gangs and cartels look for them there to kill them.

Here is a WP article on the issue:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...=.c4515c1c74f8



Jim

[Starlight]

Fake News! In slanted article of yours even, estimate is 'about half'.

No. It said:

- (All) Illegal immigrants pay sales and property taxes, like any US citizen does
- (All) Illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes, like any US citizen does
- The IRS has special "please do send me money" policies designed to make sure they never look a gift horse in the mouth or discourage illegal immigrants from paying taxes, whereby the IRS solemnly swears to never ever use the tax information to investigate the immigration status of people, and the immigrant communities are aware of this so freely communicate with the IRS on tax issues.
- The IRS issues international tax numbers to non-citizens so that non-US citizens can be formally registered with the IRS with regard to tax and are able to file tax returns like US citizens (I've got one of these numbers myself because I have a US income source which I am taxed on in the US).
- The immigrant community is well-aware that if they want to ever apply for legal status later in life, the immigration authorities look very favorably on proof that they have been dutifully filing US tax returns for years as upstanding citizens. As a result, fully half of the illegal immigrant community makes the effort to register for those international tax numbers and then files a yearly tax return with the IRS like any other citizen.
- The other half of the illegal immigrant community who don't file an annual IRS return just pay their taxes by giving their employer a fake social security number, so when the employer takes the payroll taxes out of their wages and sends it to the IRS with the fake social security number attached, IRS just applies their "thanks very much for the money" policy and chooses not to tell anyone that the social security number is fake and has come from an illegal immigrant. The immigrant then cannot claim any of the tax deductions to which they might be entitled because they haven't filed a tax return.

So all the illegal immigrants pay taxes. BUT, they're not eligible for any welfare benefits, like social security etc. So they're a wonderful source of income for the US government.

[Littlejoe]

So all the illegal immigrants pay taxes. BUT, they're not eligible for any welfare benefits, like social security etc. So they're a wonderful source of income for the US government.

That's not entirely accurate. Since they have fake Social Security Cards and fake ID's that indicate they are legal (even though they aren't), they can still get food stamps and other benefits. For every system, there's a way to scam it.

[lilpixieofterror]

No. It said:

- (All) Illegal immigrants pay sales and property taxes, like any US citizen does
- (All) Illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes, like any US citizen does
- The IRS has special "please do send me money" policies designed to make sure they never look a gift horse in the mouth or discourage illegal immigrants from paying taxes, whereby the IRS solemnly swears to never ever use the tax information to investigate the immigration status of people, and the immigrant communities are aware of this so freely communicate with the IRS on tax issues.
- The IRS issues international tax numbers to non-citizens so that non-US citizens can be formally registered with the IRS with regard to tax and are able to file tax returns like US citizens (I've got one of these numbers myself because I have a US income source which I am taxed on in the US).
- The immigrant community is well-aware that if they want to ever apply for legal status later in life, the immigration authorities look very favorably on proof that they have been dutifully filing US tax returns for years as upstanding citizens. As a result, fully half of the illegal immigrant community makes the effort to register for those international tax numbers and then files a yearly tax return with the IRS like any other citizen.
- The other half of the illegal immigrant community who don't file an annual IRS return just pay their taxes by giving their employer a fake social security number, so when the employer takes the payroll taxes out of their wages and sends it to the IRS with the fake social security number attached, IRS just applies their "thanks very much for the money" policy and chooses not to tell anyone that the social security number is fake and has come from an illegal immigrant. The immigrant then cannot claim any of the tax deductions to which they might be entitled because they haven't filed a tax return.

So all the illegal immigrants pay taxes. BUT, they're not eligible for any welfare benefits, like social security etc. So they're a wonderful source of income for the US government.

Apparently Starlight has never heard of anchor babies.

[oxmixmudd]

First - 'give me a solution' is a cop out when it comes to something as egregious as what we are dealing with right now. You're basically just deflecting the content of the link I provided. Moving the goal posts as it were. I will take that as a tacit admission there are some real problems facing those that try to enter legally which in many ways is forcing them to seek illegal entry.

Second - I am no expert on the problems or the solutions. Unlike DT et all, I would not even attempt to begin solving the problems without first gathering a significant team of experts from ALL points of view and looking carefully at what the actual problems are. Then I would take a two pronged approach. On the one side I would consult those same experts for solutions that recognize that many in the world want and need asylum due to the incredibly difficult problems that exist in nations to our south and that maximize our capacity to help them and I also would make sure we looked at long term consequences and would strive not to break the elements that are already working.

At the same time the second prong would be consult Border and Law enforcement agencies to determine what capabilities exist the can improve the 'hit rate' as it were identifying criminal elements and preventing their entry. And I would cultivate GOOD relationships as much as is possible with those countries of origin that are Friendly or potentially friendly with the US to both reduce the NEED for people to flee and increase our capacity to work with those nations in ensuring that those that come our way are not criminal* (e.g. help them in their own law enforcement efforts and facilities)

All of this with a goal to increasing the security of the borders while at the same time continuing to extent the potential and opportunity of this country to the downtrodden and hopeful of the world that see this nation as a light and a beacon to the world.

All that said: our current president's approach is so completely contrary to the historical ideals of our country as a melting pot for peoples of the world seeking opportunity and freedom as to demand any moral or freedom loving person oppose them.


Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Sorry Jim, I don't agree, we have limited resources, we simply can't take in all those who could possibly qualify. Half the third world would flow in. My priority is for my fellow countryman. And there is nothing explicit in the teachings of Jesus that says otherwise.

I'd suggest you re-read the Gospels a few times seer in terms of what our responsibilities are. (seems he told at least one fellow to go and sell EVERYTHING he had, give it to the poor, then come follow Him).

And again - this is a false dichotomy. We don't have to let everyone in that wants in in order not to turn a blind eye to those that truly need asylum. It is in fact ridiculous to suggest these are the only two alternatives. What Trump is doing is slamming the door shut, and what you guys arguing with me are doing is ignoring the cries for help of the truly needy in the attitude of your response. Neither you nor the pixie have yet to even once show the slightest compassion in your dialogue for the people I'm talking about. And there is not one thing keeping you from doing that while at the same time advocating for more secure borders. Heck - I'm FOR more secure borders. But not at the cost of sending a mother back to be burned alive by members of a drug cartel or gang when everyone involved KNEW that is exactly what would happen!


Jim

[lilpixieofterror]

First - 'give me a solution' is a cop out when it comes to something as egregious as what we are dealing with right now. You're basically just deflecting the content of the link I provided. Moving the goal posts as it were. I will take that as a tacit admission there are some real problems facing those that try to enter legally which in many ways is forcing them to seek illegal entry.

True Christians^TM, for wanting control over our nations boarders? Maybe a few more losses might help you figure that out.

Second - I am no expert on the problems or the solutions. Unlike DT et all, I would not even attempt to begin solving the problems without first gathering a significant team of experts from ALL points of view and looking carefully at what the actual problems are. Then I would take a two pronged approach. On the one side I would consult those same experts for solutions that recognize that many in the world want and need asylum due to the incredibly difficult problems that exist in nations to our south and that maximize our capacity to help them and I also would make sure we looked at long term consequences and would strive not to break the elements that are already working.

At the same time the second prong would be consult Border and Law enforcement agencies to determine what capabilities exist the can improve the 'hit rate' as it were identifying criminal elements and preventing their entry. And I would cultivate GOOD relationships as much as is possible with those countries of origin that are Friendly or potentially friendly with the US to both reduce the NEED for people to flee and increase our capacity to work with those nations in ensuring that those that come our way are not criminal* (e.g. help them in their own law enforcement efforts and facilities)

All of this with a goal to increasing the security of the borders while at the same time continuing to extent the potential and opportunity of this country to the downtrodden and hopeful of the world that see this nation as a light and a beacon to the world.

All that said: our current president's approach is so completely contrary to the historical ideals of our country as a melting pot for peoples of the world seeking opportunity and freedom as to demand any moral or freedom loving person oppose them.


Jim

[Tassman]

Sorry Jim, I don't agree, we have limited resources, we simply can't take in all those who could possibly qualify. Half the third world would flow in. My priority is for my fellow countryman. And there is nothing explicit in the teachings of Jesus that says otherwise.

[oxmixmudd]

True Christians^TM

I did not make any calls about who is or who is not a 'true Christian'. I did write a post on why it is impossible to determine who is a 'true Christian'. But this is a typical response I've found when someone points out that a behavior is contrary to the words of Christ. Where has the concept of repentance gone? Where has the concept of wanting to be in concert with Christs commands gone? No, when a person points out that a behavior is contrary to Christs words, the response is now 'who are you to judge if I'm a 'true Christian'. Well, that is not what I'm doing Pix. What I'm saying is that Jesus calls us to care about the poor, to have compassion, to act out of love. He never said that if a poor person wan't part of your country he doesn't count. Again, there are many ways you can go with this that address the issue of a governments responsibility to protect its citizens while also recognizing the words of Christ regarding our responsibility to the poor. But I'm not judging any person here. I am saying the attitudes I'm seeing towards immigrants to this country are contrary to what Christ taught.

Those words pix should make all of us blush. I've never met anyone, including myself, that is capable of truly living up to them. But that is not my point, to make some claim about myself or anyone else. The point is to recognize what the standard is, and not to indirectly or directly behave in a way that dismisses that standard as valid.

Look, I tell you what. I'm not going to try to tell you anything else from my mouth. What I am going to do is quote texts from Jesus and ask you, seer, anyone else if an immigration policy that sends a mother away knowing her gang/cartel member husband will kill her so as to 'secure the border' is something a follower of Christ can with a clear conscience support.

Source: Luke 16:20 and following

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Matthew 25:31 and following

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Luke 10:26 and following

© Copyright Original Source

[lilpixieofterror]

I did not make any calls about who is or who is not a 'true Christian'. I have did write a post on why it is impossible to determine who is a 'true Christian'. But this is a typical response I've found when someone points out that a behavior is contrary to the words of Christ. Where has the concept of repentance gone? Where has the concept of wanting to be in concert with Christs commands gone? No, when a person points out that a behavior is contrary to Christs words, the response is now 'who are you to judge if I'm a 'true Christian'. Well, that is not what I'm doing Pix. What I'm saying is that Jesus calls us to care about the poor, to have compassion, to act out of love. He never said that if a poor person wan't part of your country he doesn't count. Again, there are many ways you can go with this that address the issue of a governments responsibility to protect its citizens while also recognizing the words of Christ regarding our responsibility to the poor.

Those words pix should make all of us blush. I've never met anyone, including myself, that is capable of truly living up to them. But that is not the point. The point is recognizing what the standard is, and not behaving in a way that dismisses that standard as valid.

Look, I tell you what. I'm not going to try to tell you anything else from my mouth. What I am going to do is quote texts from Jesus and ask you, seer, anyone else that wants to say an immigration policy makes sense that sends a mother away knowing her gang/cartel member husband will kill her so as to 'secure the border' in light of - not my words pix - JESUS words.

Source: Luke 16:20 and following

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Matthew 25:31 and following

© Copyright Original Source

Source: Luke 10:26 and following

© Copyright Original Source