Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[Sparko]

I'm sure you're right. These folks are just waiting for a ticket to the latest avengers movie

[ATTACH=CONFIG]28596[/ATTACH]

(and yes I know that the decision is not made on the spot, and there is a "paper work" line too.)



Not "all"



It CAN be done that way.



Actually, the complaint is that they are crossing the border at non-points-of-entry illegally. There is nothing illegal about going to a point of entry and applying for asylum, even if you do not qualify. And the fact that we admit people with no well-defined mechanism for tracking them and ensuring that they appear for assigned court dates is part of our problem.

And when they cross there, they are rounded up and taken to the detention centers where they await whether they will be allowed asylum or sent back. Just like you said you wanted to happen. That's what I meant by "that's what we have now"

[carpedm9587]

And when they cross there, they are rounded up and taken to the detention centers where they await whether they will be allowed asylum or sent back. Just like you said you wanted to happen. That's what I meant by "that's what we have now"

Actually - there is. What I suggested has them lining up in Mexico (southern border) to apply for asylum. They can change their minds and turn around at any time. And it will not cost us a dime to support them because they are not being allowed in until they make application. The current system has them living on our nut in our centers with all of the justice issues related to famlies, until they are either returned or allowed in pending hearing.

[demi-conservative]

Actually - there is. What I suggested has them lining up in Mexico (southern border) to apply for asylum. They can change their minds and turn around at any time. And it will not cost us a dime to support them because they are not being allowed in until they make application. The current system has them living on our nut in our centers with all of the justice issues related to famlies, until they are either returned or allowed in pending hearing.

Is demi seeing right??? Really?

Carped and Trump agree?? If illegals cross, kick them out pronto?

[Sparko]

Actually - there is. What I suggested has them lining up in Mexico (southern border) to apply for asylum. They can change their minds and turn around at any time. And it will not cost us a dime to support them because they are not being allowed in until they make application. The current system has them living on our nut in our centers with all of the justice issues related to famlies, until they are either returned or allowed in pending hearing.

Isn't that what the legal people are doing now? Applying from Mexico? The only ones in the detention camps are those who crossed illegally and THEN asked for asylum. They broke the law and were removed to one of the detention centers where they are awaiting the processing of their asylum claim. If they had applied FROM Mexico, they would not be in the detention camp.

[carpedm9587]

Isn't that what the legal people are doing now? Applying from Mexico? The only ones in the detention camps are those who crossed illegally and THEN asked for asylum. They broke the law and were removed to one of the detention centers where they are awaiting the processing of their asylum claim. If they had applied FROM Mexico, they would not be in the detention camp.

Wow. You completely missed that point...

The point, Sparko, is that there would not be a need for "detention camps" if we simply bused anyone crossing the boarder to the nearest legal entry point and escorted them to the back of the "applying for asylum" line (which exists at every legal entry point). The entry points are generally in populated centers, or at least have nearby facilities. No family would be separated or detained. Anyone could apply for asylum, but the lines would be on the Mexican side of the border (for the southern border), and some percentage would likely get tired of being in line and go elsewhere. They would be responsible for feeding themselves, and housing themselves. And if it became known that coming through the border illegally just earned you a trip to the nearest entry point to apply for asylum legally, putting you actually further in the line than if you went there directly, I have to wonder what that would do to the number of those who keep trying. And surely not spending all that money on detention camps could more than pay for the buses, gas, and personnel, with money left over to beef up the border security to more easily detect those crossing.

None of that makes "applying online" or at a local consulate obsolete. Indeed, perhaps it will make those more commonly used strategies.

[Sparko]

Wow. You completely missed that point...

The point, Sparko, is that there would not be a need for "detention camps" if we simply bused anyone crossing the boarder to the nearest legal entry point and escorted them to the back of the "applying for asylum" line (which exists at every legal entry point). The entry points are generally in populated centers, or at least have nearby facilities. No family would be separated or detained. Anyone could apply for asylum, but the lines would be on the Mexican side of the border (for the southern border), and some percentage would likely get tired of being in line and go elsewhere. They would be responsible for feeding themselves, and housing themselves. And if it became known that coming through the border illegally just earned you a trip to the nearest entry point to apply for asylum legally, putting you actually further in the line than if you went there directly, I have to wonder what that would do to the number of those who keep trying. And surely not spending all that money on detention camps could more than pay for the buses, gas, and personnel, with money left over to beef up the border security to more easily detect those crossing.

None of that makes "applying online" or at a local consulate obsolete. Indeed, perhaps it will make those more commonly used strategies.

I have no problem with that. Except that by crossing the border and then asking for asylum they broke the law. This is what congress needs to change. Or build the wall.

[carpedm9587]

I have no problem with that. Except that by crossing the border and then asking for asylum they broke the law. This is what congress needs to change. Or build the wall.

The wall is a useless political trope, for all the reasons I cited before. As for "breaking the law," it is a misdemeanor and, if they are immediately escorted to an entry point and put in line, saving tax payers millions or billions of dollars, who on earth cares? District Attorneys make choices about which infractions they bring to court every day, and Presidents can pardon anyone they want to, again bypassing the normal legal system.

This "they broke the law by coming in" is just a right-rallying canard. Get past it and find a solution. The solution the right is currently putting in place, which the left did before them, is costing us a fortune. Be smarter. Do better than they did. Think outside the "lock 'em up" box. All it does is put our tax dollars into the pockets of "prisons for profits" companies.

[Sparko]

The wall is a useless political trope, for all the reasons I cited before. As for "breaking the law," it is a misdemeanor and, if they are immediately escorted to an entry point and put in line, saving tax payers millions or billions of dollars, who on earth cares? District Attorneys make choices about which infractions they bring to court every day, and Presidents can pardon anyone they want to, again bypassing the normal legal system.

This "they broke the law by coming in" is just a right-rallying canard. Get past it and find a solution. The solution the right is currently putting in place, which the left did before them, is costing us a fortune. Be smarter. Do better than they did. Think outside the "lock 'em up" box. All it does is put our tax dollars into the pockets of "prisons for profits" companies.

As far as I can tell, unless they committed another crime than crossing the border, they are merely detained while their asylum request is processed. If approved they are released into the USA, if denied they are send back to Mexico. I bet the living conditions in the detainment centers is better than any quarters on the Mexican side of the entry point you were talking about.

[carpedm9587]

As far as I can tell, unless they committed another crime than crossing the border, they are merely detained while their asylum request is processed.

Now...I think so. What sparked all of this is that everyone crossing the border at other than a valid entry point was being arrested and prosecuted. If they were families, since children cannot go to jail, parents and children were separated. That's bad enough, but when that separation occurred, they gave the children different "A File" numbers than the parents (if they stay together they are the same) and defined no mechanism for associating parent A File Numbers with Children A File numbers. This is why the director of this part of DHS stated recently that some of these separations are likely permanent, and they will never be able to reunite children with parents.

If approved they are released into the USA, if denied they are send back to Mexico. I bet the living conditions in the detainment centers is better than any quarters on the Mexican side of the entry point you were talking about.

Yet it will not be forced detention...they will be able to make choices about where they go. And we will not have to pay for those choices. And parents can stay with children. And it is essentially enforcing the behavior we want: apply for asylum at approved entry points.

[Sparko]

Now...I think so. What sparked all of this is that everyone crossing the border at other than a valid entry point was being arrested and prosecuted. If they were families, since children cannot go to jail, parents and children were separated. That's bad enough, but when that separation occurred, they gave the children different "A File" numbers than the parents (if they stay together they are the same) and defined no mechanism for associating parent A File Numbers with Children A File numbers. This is why the director of this part of DHS stated recently that some of these separations are likely permanent, and they will never be able to reunite children with parents.



Yet it will not be forced detention...they will be able to make choices about where they go. And we will not have to pay for those choices. And parents can stay with children. And it is essentially enforcing the behavior we want: apply for asylum at approved entry points.

1. They WANT to be in the USA, so they don't want to go back to Mexico.
2. Children can already stay with their parents now.
3. Knowing they will be locked up while waiting to see if they can get in does reinforce doing it the right way instead.

[carpedm9587]

1. They WANT to be in the USA, so they don't want to go back to Mexico.

Of course not. So why does that matter?

2. Children can already stay with their parents now.

Now that the policy has been adjusted - on dime and one our land.

3. Knowing they will be locked up while waiting to see if they can get in does reinforce doing it the right way instead.

On our dime and on our land.

[demi-conservative]

Carped, Trump wants to kick them out too, also fast. Conservatives agree here. Dems will though, go talk to them!

[Tassman]

1. They WANT to be in the USA, so they don't want to go back to Mexico.

2. Children can already stay with their parents now.

Well no. The majority of children separated from parents remain in the care of HHS -- and there's no real plan for how to reunite them.

3. Knowing they will be locked up while waiting to see if they can get in does reinforce doing it the right way instead.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...asylum-illegal

[Roy]

Isn't that what the legal people are doing now? Applying from Mexico? The only ones in the detention camps are those who crossed illegally and THEN asked for asylum. They broke the law and were removed to one of the detention centers where they are awaiting the processing of their asylum claim. If they had applied FROM Mexico, they would not be in the detention camp.

Is it actually illegal to cross the border and then contact the authorities to apply for asylum? AFAICT it's only illegal if you attempt to cross the border and stay in the country clandestinely.

Update: Apparently it is illegal. Strange.

[Starlight]

Is it actually illegal to cross the border and then contact the authorities to apply for asylum? AFAICT it's only illegal if you attempt to cross the border and stay in the country clandestinely.

Update: Apparently it is illegal. Strange.

My understanding is that all countries have a legal obligation (by international treaty) to provide locations at which people can enter to apply for asylum. The Trump administration has apparently physically barred such locations along the border, preventing legal asylum requests, and thus violated international agreements/laws.

This illegal behavior by the Trump administration means that seekers of legal asylum have no valid points of entry.