Separating immigrant families and imprisoning children

[Starlight]

On that topic, I came across this fascinating video yesterday. Fascinating, not least, because I'd never heard anyone directly address that question before and wasn't sure of the answer going into it:

Where In the World Is It Easiest To Get Rich?

I didn't listen to it, but I am assuming with your hatred of the USA it must not be here or you would never have posted it. Wherever it is, they must be completely evil to have so many rich people there, right? We need to send all of the immigrants there.

The answer, it turns out, is Scandinavia. Though runners-up include New Zealand and Canada. Basically, social democracies with excellent education systems, strong social safety nets, efficient government regulation, strong unions, and rapid adoption of automation and new technologies.

I do suggest watching it though, he's a good presenter, and it's an interesting topic (if, for no other reason than I've never heard anyone else address that question before).

[Starlight]

Canada does it too!

Your article says that Canada keeps the migrant families together while their requests are processed. Unlike Trump's US, Canada doesn't split the families apart.

Your article says that in the entire year Canada had only 151 children and their parent(s) held together for various lengths of time while their immigration status was processed. And 11 children who had come across the border without parents.

Whereas the Trump administration separated 2000 kids from their parents in just 6 weeks.

I got an email back from the acting-PM here (who I'm not a big fan of, and doubtless an aide wrote the email anyway) today on this issue (first time I've ever emailed a politician)... ignoring the weasel words about not being able to do anything about what the US does or doesn't do other than asking them politely to stop doing it, the main part of the response was:

As this Government has made clear, New Zealand would not separate irregular migrant families at the border. The New Zealand Government is committed to ensuring the well-being and dignity of refugees entering our country. We continue to value and uphold our international humanitarian obligations.

[Tassman]

Fake news. Trump never said all immigrants. He says that those here illegally are more likely to commit further crimes, and he is 100% right.

"A report by the Cato Institute released on February 26 reveals that illegal immigrants are much more likely to commit violent crimes than immigrants who follow the law to get here."

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2018/...-came-legally/

Why are you always so eager to follow what Trump and his enablers like Breitbart have to say? We all know that Trump is a manipulative liar.

"Trump has frequently pointed to sympathetic crime victims to justify his get-tough policies at the Southern border. But experts say the president's rhetoric overstates the threat posed by immigrants, who tend to commit crime at lower rates than people who are born in the United States".

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/22/62254...tion-and-crime

[Starlight]

Why are you always so eager to follow what Trump and his enablers like Breitbart have to say? We all know that Trump is a manipulative liar.

"Trump has frequently pointed to sympathetic crime victims to justify his get-tough policies at the Southern border. But experts say the president's rhetoric overstates the threat posed by immigrants, who tend to commit crime at lower rates than people who are born in the United States".

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/22/62254...tion-and-crime

What deceivers like Breitbart and MM try to do is to deliberately spin the truth is by changing what is being compared.

The facts of the matter, according to the studies linked to, even by lying Breitbart:

Biggest criminals: Existing Americans

Middling criminality: Illegal immigrants

Least criminal: Legal immigrants

Trump keeps trying to pretend immigrants are dangerous once they get to America because they supposedly commit violent crimes in America at high rates. Trump's a liar and he's absurdly wrong on this. Americans are not in increased danger due to immigration, or illegal immigrants. The more immigrants, legal or illegal, that the US gets, the less danger the average person in the US is in. Crime per person goes down on average, and any given person is less and less likely to ever be the victim of a crime in their lives the more immigrants there are.

Deceivers like Breitbart and MM try to confuse and obfuscate the issue in order to try and pretend Trump's lies are true by twisting words. So instead of comparing the groups that Trump himself tends to compare (illegal immigrants to Americans, or immigrants to Americans), they decide to compare legal immigrants with illegal immigrants. Switching up which groups are being compared allows these deceivers to manage to associate "illegal immigrants" with "higher crime" (than the lowest-crime group, legal immigrants) in the headlines even though illegal immigrants commit crime at lower rates than existing Americans. Using this method they are able to brainwash their readers into incorrectly associating "illegal immigrants" and "high crime" and thus produce a Pavlovian response in their gullible readers where they think the two phrases go together even though they don't. So the propagandists are thus able to salvage Trump's lies by incorrect comparisons.

[lilpixieofterror]

Your article says that Canada keeps the migrant families together while their requests are processed. Unlike Trump's US, Canada doesn't split the families apart.

Your article says that in the entire year Canada had only 151 children and their parent(s) held together for various lengths of time while their immigration status was processed. And 11 children who had come across the border without parents.

Whereas the Trump administration separated 2000 kids from their parents in just 6 weeks.

I got an email back from the acting-PM here (who I'm not a big fan of, and doubtless an aide wrote the email anyway) today on this issue (first time I've ever emailed a politician)... ignoring the weasel words about not being able to do anything about what the US does or doesn't do other than asking them politely to stop doing it, the main part of the response was:

As this Government has made clear, New Zealand would not separate irregular migrant families at the border. The New Zealand Government is committed to ensuring the well-being and dignity of refugees entering our country. We continue to value and uphold our international humanitarian obligations.

[carpedm9587]

First, the illegal immigration rate is down to close to 300,000. Second, I am not clear as to the relationship between "flooding cities" and "immigration." Can you clarify this comment?

[Sparko]

The answer, it turns out, is Scandinavia. Though runners-up include New Zealand and Canada. Basically, social democracies with excellent education systems, strong social safety nets, efficient government regulation, strong unions, and rapid adoption of automation and new technologies.

I do suggest watching it though, he's a good presenter, and it's an interesting topic (if, for no other reason than I've never heard anyone else address that question before).

Well then, now we know where all the immigrants should go if they want "the American Dream"

[Sparko]

Your article says that Canada keeps the migrant families together while their requests are processed. Unlike Trump's US, Canada doesn't split the families apart.

Your article says that in the entire year Canada had only 151 children and their parent(s) held together for various lengths of time while their immigration status was processed. And 11 children who had come across the border without parents.

Whereas the Trump administration separated 2000 kids from their parents in just 6 weeks.

I got an email back from the acting-PM here (who I'm not a big fan of, and doubtless an aide wrote the email anyway) today on this issue (first time I've ever emailed a politician)... ignoring the weasel words about not being able to do anything about what the US does or doesn't do other than asking them politely to stop doing it, the main part of the response was:

As this Government has made clear, New Zealand would not separate irregular migrant families at the border. The New Zealand Government is committed to ensuring the well-being and dignity of refugees entering our country. We continue to value and uphold our international humanitarian obligations.

Well it is really hard for Mexicans to get to the Canadian border, and not too many Americans try to illegally immigrate to Canada. Even the liberals who promised to do so if Trump won did not do it.

So 151 is a decent number.

[lilpixieofterror]

First, the illegal immigration rate is down to close to 300,000. Second, I am not clear as to the relationship between "flooding cities" and "immigration." Can you clarify this comment?

[Roy]

There's certainly nothing "fake" about your total lack of compassion and that of your fellow Trump supporters. Good Christians all!

The majority of these "criminal parents" are refugees seeking asylum from violence and gang brutality in countries such as Venezuela, from which they come for the sake of their children.

Here's a study on the nationalities and backgrounds of current asylum seekers at the US-Mexican border which is relevant to this thread.

Two sections that belie conservative claims are:

Source: above link

Previously, many migrants would seek to reach the United States by hiking through the desert undetected. But in recent years, families have begun crossing the border and waiting for a Border Patrol agent, or showing up at ports of entry, to ask for asylum.

© Copyright Original Source

In short, the recent immigrants are neither criminals nor entering illegally.

[Roy]

Despite Trump's claims to the contrary, "immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than people born in the United States.

Fake news. Trump never said all immigrants. He says that those here illegally are more likely to commit further crimes, and he is 100% right.

"A report by the Cato Institute released on February 26 reveals that illegal immigrants are much more likely to commit violent crimes than immigrants who follow the law to get here."
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2018/...-came-legally/

Your chosen source does in fact show that illegal "immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than people born in the United States."

Illegal immigrants commit more crimes than legal immigrants but less than non-immigrants.

[carpedm9587]

Except that the total illegal immigrant population in the U.S. has dropped since 2007, when it peaks at 12.2M. So while 300,000 are arriving and being detained, most are being turned away, and there is at least as many )slightly more, actually) leaving each year. And the 300K is a significant drop from when illegal immigration hit 1.6M per year in 2000. At the end of the day, the illegal immigration is a fraction of the problem it was, more are actually leaving than being allowed in each year, and the hype over immigration issues is largely a Trump talking point to rally his base. It was far more urgent 18 years ago and has been continually improving since.

Second, talk to those that live on or near the boarder. In California, rent and housing prices are way higher than a middle class family can afford. My parents 1,300 square foot house appraised for over 250,000 last year. What could 250,000 get me in the Midwest or the south?

What does that have to do with flooding cities?

And housing prices vary by density of population. It is also expensive to buy live in Manhattan, San Francisco, Dallas/Forth Worth, or any other area where the population density climbs. And while some border states have high immigration populations (e.g., California, Texas, New York), several non-border states are also high (Florida, New Jersey) and many border states have little no immigrant population (New Mexico, Montana, North Dakota, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine).

You're kind of all over the map on this one, Pix.

[seer]

Your chosen source does in fact show that illegal "immigrants are less likely to commit crimes than people born in the United States."

Except we should not have to be dealing with their crime, since they should not be here in the first place.

[Sparko]

Except we should not have to be dealing with their crime, since they should not be here in the first place.

plus just by being here they have committed at least one crime already. So 100% of them have committed crimes of at least the misdemeanor level. I don't think 100% of people born in the USA have committed misdemeanors

[carpedm9587]

Except we should not have to be dealing with their crime, since they should not be here in the first place.

Yeah - granted. But it still makes all the hoopla about criminal illegal immigrants just a little more than disingenuous. Our immigration issue is by no means "out of control" (though I certainly thought it was when all of this began). The numbers just don't show it. We are at less than 17% of the rate of illegal immigration that we saw in 2000. We are seeing a reduction in the number of illegal immigrants living in the U.S. and it has been reducing since 2007.

That doesn't mean we throw open the doors. But the massive "urgency" is nothing more than a rallying cry for the right, for a problem that has been continuously improved for the last 17 years. We have some clear problems that need to be solved: what to do with the Dreamers, what to do with the 11M currently here. Kicking them all out is simply not an option. Our unemployment is now at 4%. That number represents the percentage of people who WANT work who are not currently working, not the percentage of the overall population. In 2018, there are 95M people NOT in the labor force (children, seniors, etc.). That leaves 230M in the labor force. With a current unemployment rate of 3.9%, that's about 9M people looking for work. So if you escort all 11.1M illegal immigrants out of the country, you instantaneously drive the unemployment rate to zero (which any economist will tell you is a disaster) OR you put businesses out of business because they cannot find employees OR you create massive upward pressure on wages, driving inflation and everything that goes with it. Not to mention all of the other injustices that result (e.g., children who have never know any other home being forced to leave, close members of communities being forced to leave, etc.).

So we need a solution for the dreamers. We need a solution for the existing 11.1M. We need to strengthen the laws and processes for dealing with both legal and illegal immigration, and create some common sense quotas for the various job needs. Frankly, now that we are below the replacement rate for our existing population, immigrants will become an increasingly important part of our labor pool.