Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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NFL�s Proposed National Anthem Rules
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI'm having a very difficult time trying to understand what in the world you mean by "sensitive" and "insensitive." Further, your buckets don't come close to capturing my position regardless of what you intend by those words.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI see the protesters largely as entitled rich guys making a mountain out of a molehill by playing identity politics. I agree that police should try to avoid shooting unarmed people with an abundance of melanin. Nearly everyone already agrees with that, however, so what is protesting going to accomplish? Black on black violence is orders of magnitude larger, yet that doesn't ever seem to be a priority. So I have no sympathy for the protesters or their cause, and I despise identity politics. I just want to watch football.
1) If the flag and/or anthem is used as a means of protesting (e.g., burning the flag, sitting during the anthem), do you automatically see the people who would do such things as disrespecting all of the men/women who served under that flag?
2) If there is a perception of a systemic problem in the military or paramilitary and that systemic problem is called into question, do you automatically see those making those criticisms as being disrespectful of the people who serve in those roles?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThis is ironic coming from you.
You truly appear to have developed a burr under your saddle with respect to me, Sparko. I hope you get that fixed at some point.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt was a tease, Sparko. CP said almost the exact thing to me just a few days ago. I think he knows I was kidding.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIt was a tease, Sparko. CP said almost the exact thing to me just a few days ago. I think he knows I was kidding.
You truly appear to have developed a burr under your saddle with respect to me, Sparko. I hope you get that fixed at some point.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI know you were kidding. It was still ironic.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post"Sensitive" (in this context) means that they will react if the item in question (flag, anthem, police) is handled in a way they disapprove. So someone "sensitive" to flag issues will be upset if someone burns it in protest, or sits when the anthem is sung and the flag is raised. Someone sensitive to criticism of the police will get their back up if someone suggests they have some sort of flaw that needs to be addressed. Someone insensitive (again, in this context) doesn't get bothered by such things. The flag is a symbol - nothing more. The anthem is a symbol - nothing more. Someone can protest these things as a function of free speech. They may not like it, but it won't be a defining issue for them. And they are willing to criticize institutions like the military and paramilitary (and other service positions) without seeing it as "disrespectful."
Your description provides no information to me for how you fit into the classification I offered.
I can more easily tell if you answer these questions:
1) If the flag and/or anthem is used as a means of protesting (e.g., burning the flag, sitting during the anthem), do you automatically see the people who would do such things as disrespecting all of the men/women who served under that flag?
2) If there is a perception of a systemic problem in the military or paramilitary and that systemic problem is called into question, do you automatically see those making those criticisms as being disrespectful of the people who serve in those roles?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWell, anything can be criticized. Whether the criticism is legitimate is another question.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThat's because it's not a very good classification. Also, I don't like being put in buckets.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYes. It says that the flag is something to be despised and not worth serving. It necessarily delegitimizes those who serve or have served, regardless of the protester's intentions.
Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI don't think this sentence says what you're trying to say. In the case at hand, the perceived systemic problem (in the police, not the military or paramilitary) is being highlighted, not called into question. The person who started the whole brouhaha was undeniably being disrespectful of the police. Those who join him in protest are going to be colored by the actions of the one they emulate, and should be aware of that. I don't think they're necessarily intending to be disrespectful.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYeah. It kinda messes up the whole "kneeling is actually respectful" narrative that Carp was pushing earlier. It was always about disrespect.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou know, I was going to disagree with you, until I applied a little logic to the question. So it strikes me that, related to this issue, there are four kinds of people:
- Sensitive to flag/anthem issues and sensitive to criticism of police
- Sensitive to flag/anthem issues and insensitive to criticism of police
- Insensitive to flag/anthem issues and sensitive to criticism of police
- Insensitive to flag/anthem issues and insensitive to criticism of police
Groups 1 and 3 are a loss; they aren't going to listen to any criticism of the police because that is, in their minds, disrespecting people who put themselves on the line each day. For the record, it is possible to respect these people AND be critical of them. The alternative is folly, because it suggests that their sacrifice makes them immune to examination, which is a wide open door for corruption. That leaves Groups 2 and 4. Group 2 is going to do exactly what your criticism suggests. Group 4 will be made aware of the issue without raising the hair on the back of their necks.
So the question is, which group is larger and what proportion of them watch football. If Group 2 is larger and/or more of them watch football, this is not the best way to call attention to the issue. If Group 4 is larger and/or more of them watch football, this is a good way to call attention to the issue.
The original question also asked if this was the "best" way, and I hurriedly said yes without really giving it a lot of thought. I usually avoid superlatives because they are almost impossible to demonstrate/prove. In this case, it requires demonstrating that all other possible ways of raising awareness are less effective.
So I have to change my answer to "I don't know" on the basis of the analysis, supplemented by "probably not" on the basis of the superlative. Your analysis is a good one, and I answered too hurriedly.
I have to admit I have never watched it. Do you recommended it?
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