Is the US government good for our health?

[Sparko]

Nobody has a perfect immune system, so we need vaccines, antibiotics and medicine. It's that simple.

Just look at the past: Spanish Flu, Bubonic Plague, Polio, Small Pox, etc. Huge portions of human population died. Today, hardly anyone dies of these diseases. Not because of good immune systems, but because of medicine, vaccines, and antibiotics.

[Jedidiah]

About the only argument you could make against vaccines is that they keep people alive who would have died in the past, and thus increased deleterious mutations in the aggregate population

That is an excellent argument as long as my family and friends are not the ones who are not allowed to survive to pass on . . .

[Truthseeker]

Add up all the deaths that might be caused by vaccines and compare to all the deaths that we had before vaccines. Give me the results.

That is an impossible request, at least in terms of giving you solid scientific data. I can only guess. Maybe more people died unexpectedly soon after vaccination than healthy people died from "vaccinable" diseases.

Actually, it's not that simple. For one thing, did a person NOT take good care of his body, his immune system in particular? Did he, for example, drink sewer water daily?

Pop quiz. Imagine a penguin in good health is transported to a tropical island. Plenty of fish. Might not the penguin's life expectancy be drastically shortened? Or imagine a healthy Bengal tiger is transported to take the poor penguin's place. Won't the tiger die even more quickly than the penguin? (Again: a person who does not take good care of his body [clean air, clean and nutritionally adequate food, clean water, healthy environment] is rather apt to have an interior environment that bugs love. More apt than someone who does take good care of his body, anyway.)

I will acknowledge that perhaps even the one with the most robust immune system may get infected now and then. But "robust" includes the ability to fight off infections. The body changes its interior environment to make it tough for bugs to live inside.

Another pop quiz: Which is more apt to survive? Two men who are well matched to each other except one has a robust immune system and the other's immune system became weak recently for whatever reason. Both men touch an Ebola victim's corpse. My answer: Sparko and Lil are apt to argue that it makes no difference, both men are statistically equally likely to fall severely ill with Ebola disease.

So far, while many vaccines against Ebola have been tested, the FDA have rejected them, so that there is no approved vaccine for Ebola. Two reasons: Not safe and not effective. Sparko and Lil, alas, will probably shrug those facts off.

So what should one do to avoid coming down with Ebola? Again my advice: healthy environment including clean and nutritionally adequate food. To be sure, the advice can sometimes be rather hard to follow, but the point is, vaccines are not always really necessary if one works hard to keep one's body healthy and avoid harmful situations. Dr Mark Stengler, who has been hailed as the leading naturopath doctor, gives the same advice.

Why do Sparko and Lil continue to ignore the possibility that vaccines can wreck people's immune systems so that they are worse off after vaccination? Maybe biased in favor of what they consider "good science."

[Raphael]

So what should one do to avoid coming down with Ebola?

keep as far away from it as you can, if you have to deal with deal with it wear your hazmat suit. Treat it as a level 5 hot agent and give it the fear it deserves.

[lilpixieofterror]

I did err in saying that USUALLY vaccines work only against viruses. Bacteria and other bugs are also vaccinated against. However, Lil Pixie does not mention that vaccines could be dangerous. Many deaths have occurred that are at least rather suspicious. Cases of serious damage such as autism are suspicious at least. Many previous posts have links to relevant reports. She has failed so far to meet my challenge to cite a sound study that appear to show that the healthiest part of the world fell victim to some serious disease such as polio as about frequently as people with immune systems that are less sound.

Lots of nonsense and so little time to correct it all...

First I'll point out how wrong you are. If you take a look at the shots that are recommended by the CDC for children 0-6 years old here, a full one third of the diseases they protect against are caused by bacteria. While that is a minor point, it does go to show how little you actually know about this topic and how you seem to be unable to give accurate information on the topic in question. Second, have you looked up the actual risk of vaccinations vs the diseases they protect against? I'll use TDaP as my example (since a few of the anti vaccination people have used it). The TDaP shot has a reaction rating of about 1 in one million. To give you an idea of how small of a chance this is, you have a better chance of being injured in a car accident, having a heart attack, or getting hit by lighting than you do having a reaction to the TDaP shot. On the other hand, do you have any idea how dangerous Tetanus is? If you get infected with it and have not received a shot from it, there is a good possibility of dying as a result of it (around 50-75% from what I could find). The infection rates across the world speak just how effective the shot is. In 2010, over 60,000 people died as a result of tetanus. These people died as a result of not having the TDaP shot. Here in the US, where that shot is very common, an average of 31 cases were reported, across the entire US between the years 2000-2007. These people were infected because they either never had a shot or had let it lapse so they lost their protection (TDaP is one of the few vaccinations you can end up losing your immunity to and Tetanus can infect you more than once). Hey, if you want to live with the risk that a rusty nail or object in general could land you in the ICU that is your choice. I prefer though not to have to worry about it and considering how dangerous a Tetanus infection is (a 50% chance of dying from it doesn't sound very good to me), that it is rather painful (having muscle spasms that turn and twist you in painful positions doesn't sound like my idea of a good week), and can land you in the ICU unit (having to have a unit breathing for you) I think I'll take the one in a million shot of an adverse reaction vs a painful Tetanus infection that could kill and leave me with permit damage. Third, there is no conclusive link between altism and shots. Plus, considering the information you can find on many of these diseases they protect against, I think I'll take the slight risk of altism vs the real possibility of a Tetanus infection. Unless spending a month in the ICU, with a disease that kills 50% of the people it infects, even with treatment, sounds like fun to you. When I was a kid, I did end up stepping on a nail. I already had the Tetanus shot, but I had to have another one. It wasn't the most pleasant experience and I was sore for awhile, but considering that Tetanus kills about 50% of the people it infects, my parents might of been visiting a grave for their daughters birthday vs calling her on the phone to wish her a happy birthday. Like I said, the anti vaccination crowd will end up having dead children for their legacy. Finally, the problem is that you don't look at the facts TS because you don't care. It isn't that hard to show that the infection rates of the vaccinated for about every disease are far lower than the rates of the non vaccinated. It is easy to demonstrate that the TDaP has drastically reduced the piles of dead people just by looking at the stats themselves. 30 people, in the whole of the US, will end up having a Tetanus infection this year. All of which had these infection due to an either non existent shot record or not keeping up with their shots. Want me to demonstrate that the Polio vaccination is effective? Ok, before it was released on the open market, You'll find about 20,000 cases, per year, of polio infection back in the early 1950's. Today? Well, the last reported case of a Polio infection, in the US, was in 1999. From 1980 to 1999, a total of 152 confirmed cases of Polio were recorded. All were as a result of people not being vaccinated. So 20,0000 cases per year to 152 cases in 20 years. Looks like the Polio vaccination is quite effective. What to try this again TS or do you just want to wait till dead children pile up before you'll admit you're wrong.

I've cited this evidence before and I'm going to cite it again. Bill Sardi wrote that disease incidences plummeted in and around London when public sanitation and other health policies greatly improved (cleaner water, especially), well before vaccination was first instituted.

Sorry TS, but this shows more of your ignorance in action because diseases have many different causes. Some can be linked to unsanitary conditions, so if sanitation is improved, a natural result is a total drop in infections. Too bad that the bacteria that causes Tetanus is not linked to unsanitary conditions, eh? It is also too bad that Polio, Chicken Pox, Hepatitus, or many of the other diseases that immunizations protect against are not linked to sanitary conditions either. Well, so much for that argument. Got another one or are you just going to wait till dead children start to pile up before you'll admit that your anti vaccination nonsense is not only wrong, but dangerous that can only lead to tragedy as long thought dead diseases start making a come back?

I am puzzled how Sparko and Lil Pixie would explain how it is that before vaccination was first instituted, how animals and human beings managed to survive the onslaught of bugs.

It was luck of the draw mainly. Lots of children died from diseases today that are so rare, that we don't even think about them. Hey though, if you want to live in an era where a rusty nail could cause somebody to die in a very painful death, that is your choice, just don't include my children in your lunatic ideas, ok?

Sparko and Lil can cite the high birth rate of past times, but they are asking us to think we were rather lucky to have came through the gauntlet. I doubt that, I think there were people who did have good immune systems and survived to old age or midage at any rate. Please try to prove that assertion wrong. As for people who suffered accidents resulting in broken bones or large wounds, given the lack of medical knowledge then, I would concede their chances of surviving to old age were rather poor, but that does not prove Sparko and Lil right. Why not assume such people's immune systems were rather badly impaired by the accidents?

Sorry TS, but the infection rates pre vaccination vs post vaccination prove you wrong. Polio went from something that infected 20,000 people a year in the US to a diseases that we read about in history books that mostly is found in the third world in the 21s century.

Your arguments are easy to refute vs the actual data TS. Perhaps you should drop your anti vaccination nonsense before dead children start piling up. Makes for some very sad stories and lots of broken parents.

[lilpixieofterror]

keep as far away from it as you can, if you have to deal with deal with it wear your hazmat suit. Treat it as a level 5 hot agent and give it the fear it deserves.

Currently, oh yeah, keep away from it at all cost. Quarantine is currently the best way to stop Ebola in its tracts. Hopefully someday we can turn it into another one of those diseases that lives in the past. Thankfully, the anti vaccination crowd usually doesn't gain much traction. The sad part is though, they only end up losing ground once dead and disabled people start lining up as a result of their lunatic ideas.

[lilpixieofterror]

That is an impossible request, at least in terms of giving you solid scientific data. I can only guess. Maybe more people died unexpectedly soon after vaccination than healthy people died from "vaccinable" diseases.

It isn't impossible at all and is easy to demonstrate. Polio went from a disease that infected 20,000 people a year pre 1955, to a disease that we read about in history books in 2014. Likewise, Tetanus also went from a disease that killed millions, to one that only infects/kills the un-vaccinated. Your lunatic ideas are easy to demonstrate as false and dangerous TS. Do you want to try again or will you wait till long though dead diseases start making a come back, with dead and disabled people left in their wake, till you'll admit your ideas are wrong and dangerous?

Actually, it's not that simple. For one thing, did a person NOT take good care of his body, his immune system in particular? Did he, for example, drink sewer water daily?

Sorry, Polio nor Tetanus are linked to unsanitary conditions. Try again and this time, read before you speak ok because your nonsense is easy to prove wrong.

Pop quiz. Imagine a penguin in good health is transported to a tropical island. Plenty of fish. Might not the penguin's life expectancy be drastically shortened? Or imagine a healthy Bengal tiger is transported to take the poor penguin's place. Won't the tiger die even more quickly than the penguin? (Again: a person who does not take good care of his body [clean air, clean and nutritionally adequate food, clean water, healthy environment] is rather apt to have an interior environment that bugs love. More apt than someone who does take good care of his body, anyway.)

And this has what do do with the idea that therefore vaccinations are un-needed? Can you also actually demonstrate that anybody aruged that you only need vaccinations and don't need sanitary conditions to be healthy too? If you can't, you're arguing against a strawman. Has the thought ever entered your head that diseases can be caused by many things and even sanitary conditions do not guarantee you'll be 100% safe anymore than a vaccination will 100% guarantee that you'll be safe from disease?

I will acknowledge that perhaps even the one with the most robust immune system may get infected now and then. But "robust" includes the ability to fight off infections. The body changes its interior environment to make it tough for bugs to live inside.

Might want to tell that to the healthy people who ended up contracting Polio or Tetanus. Those diseases will take you from a healthy individual to a very sickly one in no time flat. Hey though, if you want to ignore facts, go ahead, just leave my children out of your lunatic ideas, deal?

Another pop quiz: Which is more apt to survive? Two men who are well matched to each other except one has a robust immune system and the other's immune system became weak recently for whatever reason. Both men touch an Ebola victim's corpse. My answer: Sparko and Lil are apt to argue that it makes no difference, both men are statistically equally likely to fall severely ill with Ebola disease.

Another strawman. How long does the Ebola virus live in a corpse? Despite what you might see on TV, few virial infections are going to last long in a corpse. It would all depend upon how long ago the victim died. In reality (this is the place that exist outside your head), some diseases are more prevalent than others. Good news is that Ebola isn't the most contagious diseases that exist. From what I've been able to find, it only spreads though direct contact of bodily fluids of one who is already infected. Does it mean you should play around with it? Nope, it kills at least 50% of the people it infects, so it isn't anything to play with. When your done with the strawman attacks, perhaps you'll actually respond with the facts vs attacking arguments nobody made and hoping they stick?

So far, while many vaccines against Ebola have been tested, the FDA have rejected them, so that there is no approved vaccine for Ebola. Two reasons: Not safe and not effective. Sparko and Lil, alas, will probably shrug those facts off.

More strawman. Go ahead TS, please demonstrate for everybody where anybody here has aruged that vaccines are easy to produce and shouldn't be subject to testing. What, do you think vaccinations are some instant cure thing that happen over night? Where are you pulling these facts from? Your rear end? Besides, even if they manage to develop an Ebola vaccination. I doubt it will make its way to most US citizens since Ebola isn't a common disease in the US. More likely, it will end up in Africa or being given to US citizens that could end up in contact with Ebola victims (such as members of the US military or people who are going to parts of Africa). You are aware that more than 12 vaccinations exist, right?

So what should one do to avoid coming down with Ebola? Again my advice: healthy environment including clean and nutritionally adequate food. To be sure, the advice can sometimes be rather hard to follow, but the point is, vaccines are not always really necessary if one works hard to keep one's body healthy and avoid harmful situations. Dr Mark Stengler, who has been hailed as the leading naturopath doctor, gives the same advice.

Just don't step on a rusty nail TS.

Why do Sparko and Lil continue to ignore the possibility that vaccines can wreck people's immune systems so that they are worse off after vaccination? Maybe biased in favor of what they consider "good science."

Because your information comes from quacks, who spread lies that will end up with piles of dead children as a result of their lies?

[Jedidiah]

I was not going to bother with that, Pix. It was obviously an I can not deal with that answer. But, you done good.

[Truthseeker]

Dr Mark Stengler, who has been hailed as the leading naturopath doctor, gives the same advice.

Correction: That was advice for influenza. I don't know what his advice would be for other "vaccinable" diseases.

[Truthseeker]

I think I'll take the one in a million shot of an adverse reaction vs a painful Tetanus infection that could kill and leave me with permit damage.

You gave me a huge amount of stuff to evaluate. Nevertheless, I tried to get statistics whereby to confirm that sentence quoted above. Where did that "one in a million shot" shot come from, if not your fevered imagination? Maybe it's 1,000 in a million?

[Truthseeker]

Correction: That was advice for influenza. I don't know what his advice would be for other "vaccinable" diseases.

I hope you won't mind this followup. In an article today, about Ebola, Stengler expressed doubts we are getting the true full story. Anyway, he did offer this advice: " . . . good hygiene is the first and most important step in disease control. Use caution when out in public, don't travel at all to any location with an outbreak, and wash your hands frequently no matter where you are."

[Sparko]

I hope you won't mind this followup. In an article today, about Ebola, Stengler expressed doubts we are getting the true full story. Anyway, he did offer this advice: " . . . good hygiene is the first and most important step in disease control. Use caution when out in public, don't travel at all to any location with an outbreak, and wash your hands frequently no matter where you are."

Thank you Captain Obvious. Stay away from people with Ebola. Got it.

[lilpixieofterror]

You gave me a huge amount of stuff to evaluate. Nevertheless, I tried to get statistics whereby to confirm that sentence quoted above. Where did that "one in a million shot" shot come from, if not your fevered imagination? Maybe it's 1,000 in a million?

From medical web sites that listed your chances of an adverse reaction online TS instead of whacky conspiracy theory web sites that post nonsense and lies about stuff. I've had way more shots than you have, due to my military status, and have not had one adverse reaction. In fact, most of the immunizations people at the base hospital can't really remember anybody having severe reactions to the shots children commonly get (and many of them have been in the military for decades and given shots to tens of thousands of people). To show how whacky your conspiracy nonsense is, where you alive when aspirin was given to children? Did you know that Rayes syndrome was linked to aspirin and that is why there is warning labels about giving them to children. Do you know how much money 'big pharma' makes from pain killers? If they really didn't care about health or safety, why would they post labels and admit their product could cause an adverse reaction in children (even if it is very rare)? It is because there is evidence that Rayes syndrome can be linked to taking aspirin in children. Do you have any actual scientific evidence that immunizations are linked to anything you claim they are linked to or is all you have a pile of conspiracy theory web sites and nothing else? However; there IS evidence that tetanus kills currently kills at least 1/3rd of the people who get it and are able to get into a hospital. Those who don't make it to a hospital, their risk of death increases to 50% or more. Tetanus is very common and found in lots of stuff you come into contact with every day TS. Millions died from it before a tetanus shot reduced it from killing hundreds of thousands per year, to a few thousand today (mostly this is people who have not had a shot or allowed their immunizations to lapse). You can ignore facts all you want TS, but that is at your own risk.

[Truthseeker]

From medical web sites that listed your chances of an adverse reaction online

If you don't have the time and inclination to give a link to at least one of those sites, please say so. If you say you don't, I might try again to find a site that gives a numerical estimate of adverse drug reactions for various drugs including vaccines.

[Truthseeker]

Thank you Captain Obvious. Stay away from people with Ebola. Got it.

It turns out that the Ebola guy may have known he was sick before leaving Liberia. The reason he came to the USA may have been that he wanted medical care that was not available in Libera. So potentially transmitted the bug to hundreds of people. By now, those people may have in turn transmitted the bug to hundreds or thousands more. Your sneer is simply uncalled for.