Originally posted by Roy
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Same Sex Marriages and Sexual Orientation
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postplease provide that example. There have been several of these cases. Why would a baker agree to make a gay wedding cake complete with obvious decorations like two grooms and not realize it was for a gay wedding? The one I have been talking about is the Masterpiece case where the couple asked for a rainbow wedding cake with two grooms on it. Are you saying he agreed to make that cake and while talking to the two grooms and did not realize it was for a gay wedding until they told him after they decided on the design???Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postplease provide that example. ... Are you saying he agreed to make that cake and while talking to the two grooms and did not realize it was for a gay wedding until they told him after they decided on the design???
The dispute began after Valencia and Marmolejo, who plan to tie the knot on March 27, entered the bakery to get a price for a wedding cake made of individual petit fours. They had just received a competitive quote when DeLorme challenged the couple who the cake was for. When they explained it was for their upcoming nuptials, the baker owner replied in an allegedly 'disgusted' tone: 'Sorry. We don't provide cakes for homosexual marriages'.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostYes. Here. You've been shown this before.
The dispute began after Valencia and Marmolejo, who plan to tie the knot on March 27, entered the bakery to get a price for a wedding cake made of individual petit fours. They had just received a competitive quote when DeLorme challenged the couple who the cake was for. When they explained it was for their upcoming nuptials, the baker owner replied in an allegedly 'disgusted' tone: 'Sorry. We don't provide cakes for homosexual marriages'.
I don't see the problem, they did not want to make a cake for a gay wedding, and? One of the couples did this before, from your link:
However, DeLorme, who owns the bakery with her husband David, said the firm would often refuse cake orders if they felt they did not fit their values.They had previously turned down an order for a beer themed creation and risque cakes.
Should then have been forced by law to do these other two that they refused?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI don't think that was the case with Sweet Cakes by Melissa either. I would like to see Roy's link...
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAny artist can refuse to do any particular work they wish - they simply cannot base that refusal on the color of a person's skin, their gender, or their sexual orientation unless it is directly related to that art. We've been around this horn before. I'm not saying anything new here.
Consider: A married, religious, monogamous gay couple that fully reject promiscuity in any form and that run a wedding cake shop. A heterosexual couple comes in and requests the shop to make a cake celebrating their open marriage with nude figurines of the man and the women in bed with multiple partners. Is the shop required to make such a cake even if it offends their conscience?
If not, why not? How is that different from being forced to make a cake with two men on it instead of a man and a women for a wedding cake shop whose owners believe homosexual acts are immoral.
If so - we can discuss that after you answer.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostSo what you are saying is that the bakers should have just said: "I don't feel like doing that cake" and that it would suddenly then be ok?
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostConsider: A married, religious, monogamous gay couple that fully reject promiscuity in any form and that run a wedding cake shop. A heterosexual couple comes in and requests the shop to make a cake celebrating their open marriage with nude figurines of the man and the women in bed with multiple partners. Is the shop required to make such a cake even if it offends their conscience?
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostIf not, why not? How is that different from being forced to make a cake with two men on it instead of a man and a women for a wedding cake shop whose owners believe homosexual acts are immoral.
If so - we can discuss that after you answer.
JimThe ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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When Jack politely declined to design a custom cake for a same-sex wedding, he offered to sell the couple anything off his shelves or to design a cake for them for a different event.https://adflegal.org/detailspages/bl...in-our-society
So despite Carp and others saying otherwise, he did not refuse them because they were gay. He offered to sell them any product off the shelf and even decorate a cake for a different event. The only thing he refused to do was decorate a cake celebrating GAY MARRIAGE.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhen Jack politely declined to design a custom cake for a same-sex wedding, he offered to sell the couple anything off his shelves or to design a cake for them for a different event.https://adflegal.org/detailspages/bl...in-our-society
So despite Carp and others saying otherwise, he did not refuse them because they were gay. He offered to sell them any product off the shelf and even decorate a cake for a different event. The only thing he refused to do was decorate a cake celebrating GAY MARRIAGE.
The scenario is no different than being willing to give black people a ride on the bus, but making them sit in back. Or letting black people use the bathroom, but not the one reserved for white people.
ETA: Oops... I think I did a carpescape from this thread. Darn! That put it in the "fail" column.Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-03-2018, 12:47 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWhich means he is differentiating his services on the basis of the sex (and possibly sexual orientation) of the customers - which is immoral and (hopefully) illegal. I did not say he refused to sell them anything. I said he changed his rules for what he would and would not sell solely on the basis of the sex of the people getting married. That is an inescapable reality.
The scenario is no different than being willing to give black people a ride on the bus, but making them sit in back. Or letting black people use the bathroom, but not the one reserved for white people.
ETA: Oops... I think I did a carpescape from this thread. Darn! That put it in the "fail" column.
Your example scenario has no correlation with the actual facts.
Suppose the gay couple sent in their straight friends into the store to buy their wedding cake for them and the baker understood that the cake was for a gay wedding. Do you think he would refuse to sell the gay wedding cake to the heterosexual couple?Last edited by Sparko; 05-03-2018, 12:57 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSuppose the gay couple sent in their straight friends into the store to buy their wedding cake for them and the baker understood that the cake was for a gay wedding. Do you think he would refuse to sell the gay wedding cake to the heterosexual couple?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostWhich means he is differentiating his services on the basis of the sex (and possibly sexual orientation) of the customers - which is immoral and (hopefully) illegal. I did not say he refused to sell them anything. I said he changed his rules for what he would and would not sell solely on the basis of the sex of the people getting married. That is an inescapable reality.
The scenario is no different than being willing to give black people a ride on the bus, but making them sit in back. Or letting black people use the bathroom, but not the one reserved for white people.
ETA: Oops... I think I did a carpescape from this thread. Darn! That put it in the "fail" column.
I proposed my alternate scenario for a reason (about the open marriage cake). I want you and others to address the moral issue that is really in play here, not the hot button issue it has been turned into.
And so let us take away the explicit decorations perhaps outside the expertise of the bakers. These bakers oppose promiscuity. They are gay, religious, moral, and monogamous. This is the ideal for what a gay marriage could be. And they are being asked to violate their morality by decorating for a celebration of open marriage, a promiscuous lifestyle.
Should the bakers be forced to violate their conscience to stay in business.
JimMy brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThe scenario is no different than being willing to give black people a ride on the bus, but making them sit in back. Or letting black people use the bathroom, but not the one reserved for white people.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou apparently can't read. There is nothing that says he discriminated against the couple on the basis of sex or sexual orientation. He said he would even decorate a cake for any other event. So the only basis of his refusal was the "gay wedding" which was against his religious morality.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostYour example scenario has no correlation with the actual facts.
Suppose the gay couple sent in their straight friends into the store to buy their wedding cake for them and the baker understood that the cake was for a gay wedding. Do you think he would refuse to sell the gay wedding cake to the heterosexual couple?Last edited by carpedm9587; 05-03-2018, 01:43 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo - that we disagree on. The cake celebrates a specific kind of marriage. I thought I had remember what Sparko said. That he offered them a generic cake that they could then decorate as they saw fit. So the issue here is the type of celebration - the artwork - not cake. Which goes to the point of my earlier posts in both threads. It's the type of celebration he is being asked to decorate for, not the orientation of the people asking for the cake.
I proposed my alternate scenario for a reason (about the open marriage cake). I want you and others to address the moral issue that is really in play here, not the hot button issue it has been turned into.
And so let us take away the explicit decorations perhaps outside the expertise of the bakers. These bakers oppose promiscuity. They are gay, religious, moral, and monogamous. This is the ideal for what a gay marriage could be. And they are being asked to violate their morality by decorating for a celebration of open marriage, a promiscuous lifestyle.
Should the bakers be forced to violate their conscience to stay in business.
Jim
And I have already responded to the "artwork" question. If you look at cakes (do a search online) you will find that cakes seldom have any written text, and if they do, they are generic words like "love." The only issue real issue here is that they might put two plastic male figures instead of a male and a female.
I come back to the same observation I made before: if the rules change because the sex of the marrying couple changes, then there is a bigotry problem. It is immoral - and (hopefully) illegal.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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