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"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Basically I think the "I hate socialism!" brigade here are utterly clueless, even in their own minds, about what 'socialism' is or what they think is wrong with it. Their ideas of it seem to oscillate wildly from ideas about Stalin and Mao through to Obamacare or higher taxes or a government jobs program or modern Western Europe. They don't really know quite what it is they're against, but they label it "socialism" and think that "socialism is bad". It's pathetic."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI think Communism is a stupid political policy. As Democratic Socialist writer George Orwell argued, Communism and Capitalism are basically two sides to the same coin. The final sentence of his book Animal Farm:Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThe point is Star you can't have social programs until to have first have a capitalist system. Every Democratic Socialist country that is not failing (like Venezuela) only does so because they have a robust capitalist underpinning.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by seer View PostThe point is Star you can't have social programs until to have first have a capitalist system. Every Democratic Socialist country that is not failing (like Venezuela) only does so because they have a robust capitalist underpinning."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 04-29-2018, 08:46 AM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIf you want to use Venezuela as an example of democratic socialism, then it's only fair to assess the 14 years of success when the democratic socialists were in power, as compared to the recent years of failure when a corrupt dictator who isn't a democratic socialist has been in power.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostDepends what you mean by "socialism", that's a broad category and by many measures I live in a socialist country. The current Prime Minister here was in 2008 elected president of the International Union of Socialist Youth. We've had 'socialist' healthcare here for the past 76 years. The political science name for political environment of NZ and the Scandinavian countries would be "social democracies".
blah, blah blah deleted
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Originally posted by seer View PostNo Star, Venezuela has been going down all those years. Why? Because they have been slowing destroying the capitalist system necessary to support social programs. Again Star, without capitalism Social Democracies will not and can not work. What don't you get?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNZ isn't socialist. It has socialized programs."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by seer View PostThe point is Star you can't have social programs until to have first have a capitalist system. Every Democratic Socialist country that is not failing (like Venezuela) only does so because they have a robust capitalist underpinning.
A few thoughts:
1. Data about cooperatives across the world would seem to prove your claim wrong, because cooperatives are more successful in general than capitalist businesses.
2. Pretty much all 'fully socialist' countries I can think of in history arose in poor countries. The motives of the populace were generally along the lines of "our country is incredibly poor and awful so we're ready to try anything." Pre-communist Russia was famous for its poverty and peasant farmers, pre-communist China was an absolutely impoverished asian country (and notably does very well today and is still notionally 'communist'). None of the central/south american or african countries that have tried 'socialism' were ever particularly rich.
Marx's theory was that in the richest capitalist countries, inequality would skyrocket, and that the workers would eventually rise up and overthrow the mega-rich and take their fair share. So all the marxists in the early 20th century were expecting Germany (then the world's industrial powerhouse) to turn socialist via a revolution, and were confused when poverty-stricken Russia opted to try socialism and people in Germany showed no interest in it. And instead what happened in the richest countries was the Welfare State was invented, where the government put in a taxation system that fell more on the rich than on the poor, and gave healthcare and unemployment payments to the poor, in order to limit the inequality and stop the poor from overthrowing the government and the rich. Nonetheless the USSR was the first country in the world to implement the social program of universal healthcare for all its citizens (New Zealand was second, and the UK third), and such programs exist in almost all countries today except 3rd-world ones and the US (which is one reason why I often consider the US to be a 3rd-world country). So the rich countries have opted to become "social democracies" to prevent inequality getting too high, while a lot of poor countries have tried various forms of full-on socialism to see if that would magically make them ultra-rich (it didn't magically make them ultra-rich, but the economic growth in general under their socialist economies seems pretty good on average).
3. If you were to say that all socialist countries were to eventually fail due to lacking capitalist underpinnings, such a claim is in danger of being unfalsifiable, because if a socialist country is currently working fine you'll just say it hasn't failed yet, and if it's not currently working well you'll say it's failing now. One could say exactly the same thing of capitalism."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWell at least that unevidenced ideological claim is better than "Socialism is eViL!!!"
A few thoughts:
1. Data about cooperatives across the world would seem to prove your claim wrong, because cooperatives are more successful in general than capitalist businesses.
2. Pretty much all 'fully socialist' countries I can think of in history arose in poor countries. The motives of the populace were generally along the lines of "our country is incredibly poor and awful so we're ready to try anything." Pre-communist Russia was famous for its poverty and peasant farmers, pre-communist China was an absolutely impoverished asian country (and notably does very well today and is still notionally 'communist'). None of the central/south american or african countries that have tried 'socialism' were ever particularly rich.
Marx's theory was that in the richest capitalist countries, inequality would skyrocket, and that the workers would eventually rise up and overthrow the mega-rich and take their fair share. So all the marxists in the early 20th century were expecting Germany (then the world's industrial powerhouse) to turn socialist via a revolution, and were confused when poverty-stricken Russia opted to try socialism and people in Germany showed no interest in it. And instead what happened in the richest countries was the Welfare State was invented, where the government put in a taxation system that fell more on the rich than on the poor, and gave healthcare and unemployment payments to the poor, in order to limit the inequality and stop the poor from overthrowing the government and the rich. Nonetheless the USSR was the first country in the world to implement the social program of universal healthcare for all its citizens (New Zealand was second, and the UK third), and such programs exist in almost all countries today except 3rd-world ones and the US (which is one reason why I often consider the US to be a 3rd-world country). So the rich countries have opted to become "social democracies" to prevent inequality getting too high, while a lot of poor countries have tried various forms of full-on socialism to see if that would magically make them ultra-rich (it didn't magically make them ultra-rich, but the economic growth in general under their socialist economies seems pretty good on average).
3. If you were to say that all socialist countries were to eventually fail due to lacking capitalist underpinnings, such a claim is in danger of being unfalsifiable, because if a socialist country is currently working fine you'll just say it hasn't failed yet, and if it's not currently working well you'll say it's failing now. One could say exactly the same thing of capitalism."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIf you were to say that all socialist countries were to eventually fail due to lacking capitalist underpinnings, such a claim is in danger of being unfalsifiable, because if a socialist country is currently working fine you'll just say it hasn't failed yet, and if it's not currently working well you'll say it's failing now. One could say exactly the same thing of capitalism.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostSo are you saying socialized programs can be really good? Because I see socialized programs attacked a lot here as "socialism" and as bad because they are "socialism".
But you have defended socialism as a government in the past. Are you saying you don't now?
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Originally posted by seer View PostWhat socialist country are you talking about that does not have a capitalist underpinning?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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