A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

[Cow Poke]

OK - we're drifting well away of the intent of the thread... Adrift - DE - please...?

This is not about me?

[carpedm9587]

My hope, when I started this thread, was that it might be possible to engage in a discussion about gun control/freedom/safety that did not need to denigrate into personal attacks and could focus on the issues. I am increasingly sceptical about that possibility. It seems to me to be a topic fraught with emotional overtones. I'm watching both sides make claims that we simply do not have the facts to support, and both sides assume the worst of the other side.

I am an optimist by nature. I continue to think we can come together to achieve what I think we all want: fewer deaths at the business end of a gun. But perhaps this is not the forum in which discussions to that end can proceed...

[Darth Executor]

Quite probably true.... - and probably MUCH less...

if it makes you feel better sooner or later we're gonna have 3d printed designer viruses. IE: an extinction inducing plague generator in the hands of every idiot. Enjoy the inevitable apocalypse as our grandchildren discuss the legality of assault pathogens with 12 or less lethal symptoms from their bunkers.

[carpedm9587]

Not my intention but you do incidentally bring up another good point. Adrift, who claims to be pro-life, wants to disarm people in the face of a government that is worse than the nazis (I know you don't think abortion is murder so this argument doesn't really apply to you). So it's imperative that he pretend the slave owning, tear trailing, abortion enabling US government isn't as bad as the nazis, or really all that bad to begin with.

Since I do not concur with your assessment of our government, I cannot agree with your conclusion.

Anyway, I will take all further questions on this topic in its own separate thread, which I started.

I will look for it.

[carpedm9587]

I started a new thread on this, let's see what others think.

Link?

[carpedm9587]

This is not about me?

It's not ALWAYS about you...

[Darth Executor]

Link?

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...tance-coherent

[carpedm9587]

if it makes you feel better sooner or later we're gonna have 3d printed designer viruses. IE: an extinction inducing plague generator in the hands of every idiot. Enjoy the inevitable apocalypse as our grandchildren discuss the legality of assault pathogens with 12 or less lethal symptoms from their bunkers.

You raise an interesting theory of mine. "Sentience" is a fairly new characteristic resulting from the evolutionary process. It is clear that it has relatively short-term advantages. After all, we have done more in a few thousand years to fundamentally alter this planet than the dinosaurs did in millions of years. What is NOT clear is if sentience actually has long-term survival value. It may be that sentient beings are simply doomed to burn hot and self-destruct in an amazing short period of time (as evolution is measured). It may be that "self awareness" simply makes the species so self-involved that they cannot help but eventually self-distruct.

I have to wonder....

[Jedidiah]

I think this is where we differ - and why my list in the OP had only three things on it - the first of which is "study the problem." Gun control advocates keep proposing solutions claiming they will help - but with no verified data to support it. Gun supporters claim it will have no effect, again with no verified data. AFAICT, neither side really knows what will or will not change the dynamic.

A study is pretty much not doing anything. Look at all the studies done by congress.

[carpedm9587]

A study is pretty much not doing anything. Look at all the studies done by congress.

The alternative, IMO, is to rush headlong into solutions (or no solutions) without evidence to tell us what is most likely to work or not work. As a person of science - and reason - that is unacceptable to me.

[Jedidiah]

You did not answer my question about how you saw this as a moral issue?

Invasion by government into private citizens is what I consider immoral.

If they do not say it openly - how do you know they think it?

Because sometimes they slip up and admit it. No I will not go searching for examples, read the news.

So do you feel the same way about drinking? Driving? Buying cigarettes? Registering for the armed services? Getting married?

And how is buying a gun similar to these issues?

Your view of the entire government of the United States is informed by a temp job in the post office 50 years ago?

And 50 years of looking at the efficiency of the government. Plus my daughter now works for the government and I hear her vent often.

[Jedidiah]

As best I can tell - fairly close. The difference, I think, is that there are studies about, and steps/mediation taken for pretty much everything on the list.

And they are actually reducing these how?

[Jedidiah]

The problem, Jedidiah, is that the "locked box" of a house is simply not that strong of a locked box. How many times do you go outside to work in the backyard and the house is unlocked. Or do you run down to the store for a sec, and the house is unlocked? And how many times do you have people visiting your home, and they are left unattended for some period of time. A gun is a deadly weapon. Your approach (as described above) certainly sounds like "due diligence" to me. If the ammunition is likewise secured - awesome.

But the idea of holding an owner who did NOT show due diligence in securing their weapons at least partially responsible for a crime committed with them has, IMO, merit. We see it in other places. If a bank does not show due diligence in protecting its information, and they are hacked and the information used to harm others (i.e., steal their money), the bank is liable for its failure to protect itself. If they DO implement reasonable security controls, and they are still hacked, they are NOT liable. If a family has a pool and does not secure it from entry, and a neighborhood child climbs into it and drowns, they are liable for a lack of due diligence. There are many places where, if I do not show reasonable effort made to prevent the bad thing...I am potentially liable.

I thought about using the attractive nuisance idea in my post but did not want to get into the radical difference.

I disagree with everything else you responded. And I never leave my house unlocked, ever. My house is locked even when we are home and inside.

What description looks like "due diligence" to you? A previous post or the "locked box inside a locked box inside a locked box.

[Jedidiah]

11 million in the holocaust (largely within 4 years between 1941 and 1945), and he was responsible for the deaths of, what...some 30 million more combatants in about the same time period? Left uncheck the holocaust numbers would have swelled far far beyond that. Never mind all of the other reprehensible things the Nazis did.

Counting combatants is indeed apples and oranges.

[Jedidiah]

You can do it now. The only part you can't really print is the metal barrel. And the plastic ones tend to break after a few uses. But there are high end metal printers that could print durable guns, again except for the barrel which needs to be machined.

It is a snap to replace a barrel, so not much of a problem.