A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

[Mountain Man]

Ok, well for clarification's sake, I don't think guns are the ONLY effective method of killing. I think they are one of the MOST effective methods of killing. And it really makes no sense to want to vilify guns for no reason. The reason I think guns ought to be vilified is tied directly to their effectiveness. So, far from not caring about suicide rates, I care a lot.

And it's your assumption that banning guns would reduce suicide rates? Or would it be like in Australia where gun crime decreased following the ban but overall rates of violent crime remained unchanged?

[Mountain Man]

Would you also agree that [guns are] more effective at killing people than, say, knives?

Not necessarily. More effective in some scenarios, less effective in others.

[Adrift]

And it's your assumption that banning guns would reduce suicide rates?

It's my assumption that it would help reduce successful suicides, yes.

Or would it be like on Australia were gun crime decreased but overall rates of violent crime remained unchanged?

As noted in a previous thread, actual rates of homicide are down.

[Adrift]

Not necessarily. More effective in some scenarios, less effective in others.

Ah, well there you have it then.

[Mountain Man]

It's my assumption that it would help reduce successful suicides, yes.




As noted in a previous thread, actual rates of homicide are down.

Rates of homicide by gun are down. Overall rates of homicide are virtually unchanged compared to pre-ban rates. You have to be careful of this common bait-and-switch when looking at anti-gun crime stats.

And on what do you base your assumption that banning guns would reduce the number of successful suicides? Is that just a hunch, or is there data to support this conclusion?

[Mountain Man]

Ah, well there you have it then.

You seen to think my response vindicates you. It does not. Guns are effective at killing. I've never disputed that. They're just not necessarily the most effective in every situation. Surely you cab concede that without giving up your anti-gun position.

[KingsGambit]

For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

Guns are effective when convenient to the gun rights narrative but ineffective otherwise.

[Adrift]

Rates of homicide by gun are down. Overall rates of homicide are virtually unchanged compared to pre-ban rates. You have to be careful of this common bait-and-switch when looking at anti-gun crime stats.

Not according to the surveys I'm finding. According to this, homicide rates in Australia are at a historic low. I thought you had agreed that homicides were down internationally in another thread.

And on what do you base your assumption that banning guns would reduce the number of successful suicides? Is that just a hunch, or is there data to support this conclusion?

It's based on the fact that attempts by gun result in the highest number of successful suicides in America as presented in the figures I had previously cited (see post #323), and the data provided by forensic psychologists like Liza Gold that most suicides attempts occur in the home on impulse, which makes a gun a the most practical tool for the job.

[Adrift]

You seen to think my response vindicates you. It does not. Guns are effective at killing. I've never disputed that. They're just not necessarily the most effective in every situation. Surely you cab concede that without giving up your anti-gun position.

Sure, I suppose if you were some sort of commando, and you wanted to take out your enemy silently, a knife would be a better tool for the job than a gun, but I think generally speaking guns are far far more effective than knives at killing people. I mean, ridiculously so.

[Mountain Man]

Sure, I suppose if you were some sort of commando, and you wanted to take out your enemy silently, a knife would be a better tool for the job than a gun, but I think generally speaking guns are far far more effective than knives at killing people. I mean, ridiculously so.

Surely you have a better imagination than that.

At any rate, the effectiveness argument goes both ways: it's the gun's effectiveness that makes them such ideal self-defense weapons.

[Mountain Man]

Not according to the surveys I'm finding. According to this, homicide rates in Australia are at a historic low. I thought you had agreed that homicides were down internationally in another thread.



It's based on the fact that attempts by gun result in the highest number of successful suicides in America as presented in the figures I had previously cited (see post #323), and the data provided by forensic psychologists like Liza Gold that most suicides attempts occur in the home on impulse, which makes a gun a the most practical tool for the job.

Here's an article from 2015:

http://thefederalist.com/2015/09/03/...n-ban-conceit/

[Darth Executor]

Not according to the surveys I'm finding. According to this, homicide rates in Australia are at a historic low. I thought you had agreed that homicides were down internationally in another thread.

According to year by year charts i'm looking at australia gun ban seems to have no correlation with homicide rates

It's based on the fact that attempts by gun result in the highest number of successful suicides in America as presented in the figures I had previously cited (see post #323), and the data provided by forensic psychologists like Liza Gold that most suicides attempts occur in the home on impulse, which makes a gun a the most practical tool for the job.

Suicide rates shouldn't be part of the discussion at all. A suicide isn't something that happens to you that is out of your control, like a massacre or a home invasion. It's something you do to yourself.

[Teallaura]

2nd Amendment is part of this country's founding document and the law of the land.

And it WASN'T incorporated until a few years ago - which means for the vast majority of its history, it ONLY applied to the Federal government.

Yet gun control laws remain in effect - because the Court did NOT find - nor has it ever found - that the Second Amendment is a free pass for anyone and everyone to own whatever gun they like.

Yes, it's the law - but so are laws against jaywalking. If you don't understand the law, you cannot reasonably apply that law.

This will be the part where Jed who refuses to acknowledge laws he deems too complex will start arguing that he understands Constitutional law flawlessly and everyone else is a poopiehead.

[Teallaura]

I will disagree, but not with a lot of respect for what I see as a way to avoid the issue. When I was a kid a locked door was enough. Now the guy who locks his door is negligent? Baloney no matter how thin you slice it. Sorry this is more evidence of our societies break with reality.

What it is is your refusal to deal with the reality that the world changed. Society is worse - and you still bear full responsibility for your weapons. They're yours, you get to clean up after them.

And you're wrong - kids did all sorts of crap back then - it just didn't result in gun play like now.

[KingsGambit]

A suicide isn't something that happens to you that is out of your control, like a massacre or a home invasion. It's something you do to yourself.

And what's the import of this? Even if people bear full responsibility for committing suicide, reducing suicide rates is still a worthy goal.