Florida School Shooting

[Sparko]

Here you are,

https://www.cityofchicago.org/conten...er/GTR2017.pdf

"With consistent data trends now going back almost a decade, the majority of illegally used or possessed firearms recovered in Chicago are traced back to states with less regulation over firearms, such as Indiana and Mississippi: More than two of every five traceable crime guns recovered in Chicago originate with their first point of sale at an Illinois dealer. The remaining 60 percent of firearms come from out of state, with Indiana as the primary source for approximately one out of every five crime guns."

Yeah but illegally. So what you are really saying is that more Gun regulations and laws don't mean beans to criminals, right?

[Cow Poke]

You're missing the point--it's silly to toot about Chicago's gun laws as evidence that gun control has been tried and failed. It's hasn't been tried because the laws are too easily skirted.

It's silly to think that if the purchase of guns was made illegal, BESIDES making them illegal to use or to own, that somehow those who illegally own and use them would say, "gosh, gee... I can't legally buy a gun, so I won't try to skirt THAT law, either".

[Mountain Man]

Correct, when you can get in a car and take a short drive, the laws are ineffective. That's why I said "In effect, Chicago has no gun laws."

Short drive, long drive, imported from out of the country... it makes no difference. Gun laws aren't going to stop the criminal element from arming themselves. The only thing gun laws do is ensure that honest citizens are outgunned.

[Cow Poke]

The point there being that if guns were harder to get across the United States, it might help reduce gun crimes.

It would simply make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain them - criminals are used to doing things in unconventional ways.

[guacamole]

Short drive, long drive, imported from out of the country... it makes no difference. Gun laws aren't going to stop the criminal element from arming themselves. The only thing gun laws do is ensure that honest citizens are outgunned.

If you reduce the availability, then logically, it becomes harder and harder to obtain the guns to use in crimes. I'm not necessarily arguing for gun abolition either--In this case, I'd argue, for starters, that the gun-show loop holes be closed.

[Cow Poke]

If you reduce the availability, then logically, it becomes harder and harder to obtain the guns to use in crimes.

If you take teaspoons of water out of the ocean, then logically, it becomes harder and harder for ships to sail.

I'm not necessarily arguing for gun abolition either--In this case, I'd argue, for starters, that the gun-show loop holes be closed.

How does that bolster your argument that Chicago's gun laws are ineffectual because guns can be purchased legally in the next state?

[guacamole]

It would simply make it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain them - criminals are used to doing things in unconventional ways.

Driving to a gun show to take advantage of loopholes is hardly doing something unconventional.

[guacamole]

How does that bolster your argument that Chicago's gun laws are ineffectual because guns can be purchased legally in the next state?

From the study:

If charges were brought against the criminal possessor, in 91 percent of cases the offender was charged for illegally
possessing a firearm; more than half of those arrests were categorized as gang-involved by CPD. Finally, in 95 percent of
cases where CPD was able to identify the possessor of the crime gun, that individual was not the original, lawful purchaser
of the firearm based upon the ATF record at the initial point of purchase.

Again, 60% of the guns used in Chicago's gun crimes come from out of state. The other 40% come from outside of the city.

[Cow Poke]

From the study:

If charges were brought against the criminal possessor, in 91 percent of cases the offender was charged for illegally
possessing a firearm; more than half of those arrests were categorized as gang-involved by CPD. Finally, in 95 percent of
cases where CPD was able to identify the possessor of the crime gun, that individual was not the original, lawful purchaser
of the firearm based upon the ATF record at the initial point of purchase.

Again, 60% of the guns used in Chicago's gun crimes come from out of state. The other 40% come from outside of the city.

So, more than HALF of the gun problems were gang-related, yes? And we should be surprised that the CRIMINAL obtained the gun illegally? I'll take a deep breath and give you another crack at this, cause I'm just not seeing it.

[Cow Poke]

Driving to a gun show to take advantage of loopholes is hardly doing something unconventional.

That's the easy route, and I have no objection to 'closing loopholes' -- I just don't see that as being an answer to the actual problem.

[guacamole]

So, more than HALF of the gun problems were gang-related, yes? And we should be surprised that the CRIMINAL obtained the gun illegally? I'll take a deep breath and give you another crack at this, cause I'm just not seeing it.

Did you read the bolded part of the quote? Whether or not the guns were criminally obtained by criminals to engage their criminality is not the actual point here. That's... understood.

[Adrift]

They are still illegally used or possessed. Those are criminal actions. Apparently, these people are not overly concerned about gun laws.

Yeah but illegally. So what you are really saying is that more Gun regulations and laws don't mean beans to criminals, right?

Yes. They're then illegally possessed. So? No one is arguing that only non-criminals commit murder.

[Cow Poke]

Yes. They're then illegally possessed. So? No one is arguing that only non-criminals commit murder.

Well, actually, somebody could be a non-criminal PRIOR to committing murder.

[Adrift]

Well, actually, somebody could be a non-criminal PRIOR to committing murder.

Right, which is why I anticipated that with the qualifier "only".

[Cow Poke]

Did you read the bolded part of the quote?

I did.

Whether or not the guns were criminally obtained by criminals to engage their criminality is not the actual point here. That's... understood.

Maybe we should outlaw criminals!

(we're all just saying the same things over and over - this is getting wearisome. It's like the global warming arguments - they generate a whole lot more heat than they do light, and the problem doesn't change)