Florida School Shooting

[Darth Executor]

The report goes into some of the gun shops, including those in Indiana, that have been involved.

the point is that proximity to indiana only explains a small fraction of the gun flow (and there's no reason to think that if indiana was somewhere else the would be unable to obtain more guns).

while on this topic, manufacturing guns is easier than manufacturing drugs, and will become even easier as 3d printing technology improves. IMO gun control, like the labor market, has a hard expiration date set for it.

[guacamole]

According to the Chicago Tribute....

A refresher course on gun ownership in the city, and concealed carry

City residents can own firearms but with several conditions: You must be 21 years old and possess a firearm owner's identification (FOID) card and concealed carry license, both issued by Illinois State Police.

Prior to getting a concealed carry license, residents must complete a 16-hour training course, which includes a gun range test that residents must pass, as well as coursework on gun safety. They are also subject to a background check and must pay a $150 application fee. Applicants may be denied a concealed carry license, or have law enforcement agencies object to their applications, if they have particular criminal convictions.

Those who keep guns in the home must hold only a valid FOID card. Gun owners who carry a firearm outside the home must have an FOID and a concealed carry permit.

So, you can't just cross the state line, buy a gun, and be legal. And, yet ... the murder rate...

Right, our magical wall to keep out illegal firearms is still under construction.

[guacamole]

the point is that proximity to indiana only explains a small fraction of the gun flow (and there's no reason to think that if indiana was somewhere else the would be unable to obtain more guns).

20% is hardly a small fraction. 60% from out of state? Hardly insignificant.

[Adrift]

the point is that proximity to indiana only explains a small fraction of the gun flow (and there's no reason to think that if indiana was somewhere else the would be unable to obtain more guns).

20% doesn't seem to me a small fraction. Especially when the other 40% also comes from out of state (typically in relatively close states).

[Littlejoe]

He didn't read over your point, he correctly noted that you and your source are cherry picking the data, e.g. by including bomb victims from the Paris attacks but not from the Boston marathon event, in order to paint a misleading picture.

you are correct. I did miss that.

[guacamole]

Oh, I see, so it's Indiana's fault that Chicago's excessively strict gun laws are ineffective.

The point, of course, is that when government enacts prohibitively restrictive gun laws, people will simply acquire their guns illegally. And my guess is, the kids in the "hood" aren't lining up to take their licensing exam, which supports another point, that gun regulation only impacts law abiding citizens.

Correct, when you can get in a car and take a short drive, the laws are ineffective. That's why I said "In effect, Chicago has no gun laws."

[Darth Executor]

Here's a link to a report compiled by Chicago's mayor's office. Feel free to peruse:

https://www.cityofchicago.org/conten...er/GTR2017.pdf

Key points of data is that 60% of the traceable sales of firearms took place outside of Illinois. The overwhelming majority of them took place outside of the city.

Chicago being a key meme example of "failed gun laws," I doubt this data will have any impact.

fwiw,
guacamole

but we were talking specifically about gangbangers going to indiana to buy them. obv guns are being imported from somewhere, despite the ban. that's actually the point we've been trying to make. Organized crime produces most gun deaths and is the least deterred by gun control. not because gangbangers who can barely afford a transit ticket are going to buy guns out of state but because their leaders have money and access to black market connections.

[guacamole]

but we were talking specifically about gangbangers going to indiana to buy them. obv guns are being imported from somewhere, despite the ban. that's actually the point we've been trying to make. Organized crime produces most gun deaths and is the least deterred by gun control. not because gangbangers who can barely afford a transit ticket are going to buy guns out of state but because their leaders have money and access to black market connections.

Do you have any data to support this "organized crime " argument?

[Cow Poke]

Here you are,

https://www.cityofchicago.org/conten...er/GTR2017.pdf

"With consistent data trends now going back almost a decade, the majority of illegally used or possessed firearms...

They are still illegally used or possessed. Those are criminal actions. Apparently, these people are not overly concerned about gun laws.

[guacamole]

They are still illegally used or possessed. Those are criminal actions. Apparently, these people are not overly concerned about gun laws.

The point there being that if guns were harder to get across the United States, it might help reduce gun crimes.

[Cow Poke]

Right, our magical wall to keep out illegal firearms is still under construction.

You're missing the point - these people are purchasing these firearms elsewhere, even though it's illegal to have them, in most cases. They are, by definition, criminals not yet caught.

[Cow Poke]

Correct, when you can get in a car and take a short drive, the laws are ineffective. That's why I said "In effect, Chicago has no gun laws."

That's just silly - it would be more appropriate to say they have no gun laws that actually work.

[guacamole]

You're missing the point - these people are purchasing these firearms elsewhere, even though it's illegal to have them, in most cases. They are, by definition, criminals not yet caught.

You're missing the point--it's silly to toot about Chicago's gun laws as evidence that gun control has been tried and failed. It's hasn't been tried because the laws are too easily skirted.

[Cow Poke]

The point there being that if guns were harder to get across the United States, it might help reduce gun crimes.

And you can spit in one hand and wish in the other, and see which fills up first.

[guacamole]

That's just silly - it would be more appropriate to say they have no gun laws that actually work.

"In effect, Chicago has no gun laws." That's what the "In effect" qualifier tends to mean.