Should Trump Resign Over "Hellhole" Comment?

[Cow Poke]

Most of the reaction is not to what I have actually said - but rather to what everyone is projecting onto what I have said. That is the part that is rather amazing.

Calm yourself, brother - we're just talking.

[carpedm9587]

exactly. In other words "we are all different" - Everyone has or lacks certain "privileges" in various areas. Someone might be smarter than someone else, someone might be more attractive, someone might be richer. That's just the way it is. Nobody is promised complete equality with everyone else. Our jobs are not to fix every perceived difference between people. And those who do have advantages in various areas should just thank God and use their advantage as best they can to succeed in life. If you are rich you don't have to feel guilty and give all your money to the poor, or live like you are poor. If you are attractive you don't have to dress down and pretend not to be. If you are white you don't have to be guilty about it or try to put yourself in the back of the line.

You are unique, just like everybody else.

We ARE all different - and we are sometimes advantaged by things over which we had no control.

My son's teacher is the track coach for the school. He gave the students an object lesson in privilege on day, which I found refreshing (and I think I have related elsewhere). He took his class out to the track and told them they were gooing to run a 440 (one lap). He lined the students up, but then he told them, "before I fire the starting gun, I'm going to read this list. Each time you hear something that applies to you, I want you to tak ethree steps forward." Then he read a list something like the following:

• You are white
• You are male
• Both of your parents are alive
• Both of your parents are at home
• Your family lives on one income with one parent at home full time
• You have never had to get a job to help pay the bills
• Your parents have set aside all/most of your college money (the class was seniors)
• You have never been in the hospital overnight
• Your parents drive you to/from school or have provided a car for that purpose
• You do not have a diagnosed physical disability

The list went on, but you get the idea. Then, before starting the race, he said something like, "Before you start running, take a look at where you are on the track and who is behind you and ahead of you. Your position on this track has nothing to do with you - it is entirely due to things you benefit from but never controlled. When you finish the race, it will be you that ran it, and you that finished it. But when you cross that finish line, remember that those behind you had to work that much harder to get to the end, and you had to work harder than the people in front of you. That's what your life will be like."

I found it profound.

[Zymologist]

We ARE all different - and we are sometimes advantaged by things over which we had no control.

My son's teacher is the track coach for the school. He gave the students an object lesson in privilege on day, which I found refreshing (and I think I have related elsewhere). He took his class out to the track and told them they were gooing to run a 440 (one lap). He lined the students up, but then he told them, "before I fire the starting gun, I'm going to read this list. Each time you hear something that applies to you, I want you to tak ethree steps forward." Then he read a list something like the following:

• You are white
• You are male
• Both of your parents are alive
• Both of your parents are at home
• Your family lives on one income with one parent at home full time
• You have never had to get a job to help pay the bills
• Your parents have set aside all/most of your college money (the class was seniors)
• You have never been in the hospital overnight
• Your parents drive you to/from school or have provided a car for that purpose
• You do not have a diagnosed physical disability

The list went on, but you get the idea. Then, before starting the race, he said something like, "Before you start running, take a look at where you are on the track and who is behind you and ahead of you. Your position on this track has nothing to do with you - it is entirely due to things you benefit from but never controlled. When you finish the race, it will be you that ran it, and you that finished it. But when you cross that finish line, remember that those behind you had to work that much harder to get to the end, and you had to work harder than the people in front of you. That's what your life will be like."

I found it profound.

This example is a good illustration of why I find the whole discussion largely worthless: there are a lot of potential variables (which you seem to agree with), but even this example leaves a lot of those to be desired. It still seems to boil down to "Oh, you're white and male? Boy, do you have it easy." Sure, maybe in some ways...but again, oversimplification.

[Cow Poke]

We ARE all different - and we are sometimes advantaged by things over which we had no control.

My son's teacher is the track coach for the school. He gave the students an object lesson in privilege on day, which I found refreshing (and I think I have related elsewhere). He took his class out to the track and told them they were gooing to run a 440 (one lap). He lined the students up, but then he told them, "before I fire the starting gun, I'm going to read this list. Each time you hear something that applies to you, I want you to tak ethree steps forward." Then he read a list something like the following:

• You are white
• You are male
• Both of your parents are alive
• Both of your parents are at home
• Your family lives on one income with one parent at home full time
• You have never had to get a job to help pay the bills
• Your parents have set aside all/most of your college money (the class was seniors)
• You have never been in the hospital overnight
• Your parents drive you to/from school or have provided a car for that purpose
• You do not have a diagnosed physical disability

The list went on, but you get the idea. Then, before starting the race, he said something like, "Before you start running, take a look at where you are on the track and who is behind you and ahead of you. Your position on this track has nothing to do with you - it is entirely due to things you benefit from but never controlled. When you finish the race, it will be you that ran it, and you that finished it. But when you cross that finish line, remember that those behind you had to work that much harder to get to the end, and you had to work harder than the people in front of you. That's what your life will be like."

I found it profound.

Did the track coach go on to explain that black people tend to do better on the track that whites? That, for example, 28 of the last 38 world record holders in the men's 100-meter have been black athletes? That they seem to have some black privilege in that respect? How bout the NBA? Should there be "social justice" adjustments to offset the "black privilege" in those sports? Of course not!

[Sparko]

We ARE all different - and we are sometimes advantaged by things over which we had no control.

My son's teacher is the track coach for the school. He gave the students an object lesson in privilege on day, which I found refreshing (and I think I have related elsewhere). He took his class out to the track and told them they were gooing to run a 440 (one lap). He lined the students up, but then he told them, "before I fire the starting gun, I'm going to read this list. Each time you hear something that applies to you, I want you to tak ethree steps forward." Then he read a list something like the following:

• You are white
• You are male
• Both of your parents are alive
• Both of your parents are at home
• Your family lives on one income with one parent at home full time
• You have never had to get a job to help pay the bills
• Your parents have set aside all/most of your college money (the class was seniors)
• You have never been in the hospital overnight
• Your parents drive you to/from school or have provided a car for that purpose
• You do not have a diagnosed physical disability

The list went on, but you get the idea. Then, before starting the race, he said something like, "Before you start running, take a look at where you are on the track and who is behind you and ahead of you. Your position on this track has nothing to do with you - it is entirely due to things you benefit from but never controlled. When you finish the race, it will be you that ran it, and you that finished it. But when you cross that finish line, remember that those behind you had to work that much harder to get to the end, and you had to work harder than the people in front of you. That's what your life will be like."

I found it profound.

profoundly useless. Not one of those arbitrary things on that list have squat to do with running track. I could come up with a list of items that would put any group I wanted in the front. Besides he was hardly original - you can look up various people on Youtube doing the exact same thing. It's this sort of arbitrary guilt trip that I find highly distasteful. Making children feel guilty for no reason other than to make the adult feel better about "doing something to help the underprivileged"

[Cow Poke]

profoundly useless. Not one of those arbitrary things on that list have squat to do with running track. I could come up with a list of items that would put any group I wanted in the front. Besides he was hardly original - you can look up various people on Youtube doing the exact same thing. It's this sort of arbitrary guilt trip that I find highly distasteful. Making children feel guilty for no reason other than to make the adult feel better about "doing something to help the underprivileged"

And that's what this is all about.

How bout somebody having the honestly and courage to proclaim "life is tough - not everybody gets a trophy in real life - if you want to make it, you have to overcome obstacles...."

[Zymologist]

I'll add this, while I'm thinking about it: everyone wants their own life experience to be considered more difficult than anyone else's. For self-validation, or whatever...I do it. My gut problem? Man, let me tell you that you wouldn't want it. My personality and sociability issues? You have no idea. (Seriously, no clue.)

But that whole approach is just wrong-headed. I have no idea what the other person has struggled with and continues to struggle with. Maybe they have severe problems with depression, and manage to put up a good facade.

Life is tough for everyone, of every race and upbringing.

[Sparko]

And that's what this is all about.

How bout somebody having the honestly and courage to proclaim "life is tough - not everybody gets a trophy in real life - if you want to make it, you have to overcome obstacles...."

Pretty much what I was told growing up when I saw other kids get things I couldn't have because my dad was a sergeant in the Army and my mom didn't work so we never had much money. When other kids got cars when they were 16 I was told to get a job and earn the money myself, so I did. When other kids went to college, I had to pay my own way through trade school. I never complained that it wasn't fair or that I deserved what they had. It just motivated me to work hard and appreciate what I had (and have). I don't owe anyone anything and I have zero privilege to feel guilty about.

[JimL]

profoundly useless. Not one of those arbitrary things on that list have squat to do with running track. I could come up with a list of items that would put any group I wanted in the front. Besides he was hardly original - you can look up various people on Youtube doing the exact same thing. It's this sort of arbitrary guilt trip that I find highly distasteful. Making children feel guilty for no reason other than to make the adult feel better about "doing something to help the underprivileged"

Talk about missing the point entirely! The point isn't about guilt Sparko.

[JimL]

And that's what this is all about.

How bout somebody having the honestly and courage to proclaim "life is tough - not everybody gets a trophy in real life - if you want to make it, you have to overcome obstacles...."

Who said otherwise?

[Mountain Man]

The privilege I experience on a daily basis is most certainly linked to my being white, and to my being male. I probably experience it to a greater degree than most, but to a less degree than some. When I apply for a job (which I have not done for a decade now), statistically I am going to be paid more for my work than a woman or a black person hired to the same job. That is well established. When I walk down the street, I do not experience what my children do (i.e., people crossing the street, or looking away) because I am white. When I am stopped for speeding, the attitude of the police officer who approaches me has a significant chance of being distinctly different than it is for a black man or a black woman. there are a variety of things I experience each day that are a beenfit I experience from my race and gender. These are not things I did anything to earn. They are simply realities I benefit from. To take on some responsibility for helping others who do not experience these benefits, whatever their color or gender, is simply justice, IMO.

Do you have any actual examples of you getting a job over a black man for no other reason than because you happened to be white? Or you being paid more than an identically skilled and experienced coworker simply by virtue of your skin color and sex? Or is this the manifestation of your self-loathing brought on by the false liberal narrative that you should feel guilty simply for being white and male?

This whole discussion reminds me of how my mother-in-law used to dismiss the success of my marriage by giving my wife and I the arbitrary label of "soul mates" and telling us that not everybody was lucky enough to find their "soul mate" and have the sort of marriage that we enjoyed. It used to piss me off, because my wife and I worked extremely hard to build a successful marriage, it had nothing to do with "luck of the draw", and anybody who was willing to be put in the same kind of time and effort could have what we had.

This "white male privilege" narrative is the same sort of "You didn't build that" bullcrap that Obama promoted in order to downplay individual achievement.

We ARE all different - and we are sometimes advantaged by things over which we had no control.

My son's teacher is the track coach for the school. He gave the students an object lesson in privilege on day, which I found refreshing (and I think I have related elsewhere). He took his class out to the track and told them they were gooing to run a 440 (one lap). He lined the students up, but then he told them, "before I fire the starting gun, I'm going to read this list. Each time you hear something that applies to you, I want you to tak ethree steps forward." Then he read a list something like the following:

• You are white
• You are male
• Both of your parents are alive
• Both of your parents are at home
• Your family lives on one income with one parent at home full time
• You have never had to get a job to help pay the bills
• Your parents have set aside all/most of your college money (the class was seniors)
• You have never been in the hospital overnight
• Your parents drive you to/from school or have provided a car for that purpose
• You do not have a diagnosed physical disability

The list went on, but you get the idea. Then, before starting the race, he said something like, "Before you start running, take a look at where you are on the track and who is behind you and ahead of you. Your position on this track has nothing to do with you - it is entirely due to things you benefit from but never controlled. When you finish the race, it will be you that ran it, and you that finished it. But when you cross that finish line, remember that those behind you had to work that much harder to get to the end, and you had to work harder than the people in front of you. That's what your life will be like."

I found it profound.

What a stupid lesson, especially since every person has any number of advantages and disadvantages in their life, and that there are no advantages common to any one group that give every member of that group an equally greater chance of success. This is nothing more than a lesson in self-loathing and bigotry, which come to think of it, is what liberalism teaches in general. I bet you I know who that coach voted for in the last election.

[Mountain Man]

Pretty much what I was told growing up when I saw other kids get things I couldn't have because my dad was a sergeant in the Army and my mom didn't work so we never had much money. When other kids got cars when they were 16 I was told to get a job and earn the money myself, so I did. When other kids went to college, I had to pay my own way through trade school. I never complained that it wasn't fair or that I deserved what they had. It just motivated me to work hard and appreciate what I had (and have). I don't owe anyone anything and I have zero privilege to feel guilty about.

My kids learned early on to never use the "But that's not fair!" argument with me or my wife, because we would tell them without hesitation, "Too bad. Life isn't fair. Get used to it."

[Cow Poke]

My kids learned early on to never use the "But that's not fair!" argument with me or my wife, because we would tell them without hesitation, "Too bad. Life isn't fair. Get used to it."

I taught Junior High many years ago, and on the first day of school, I would write my name on the board, and under that "I'm not Fair", double underlined.

Inevitably, I would have a student complain, "that's not fair", and I'd just walk over and point to the board - "I'm not fair".

[Darth Executor]

The privilege I experience on a daily basis is most certainly linked to my being white, and to my being male. I probably experience it to a greater degree than most, but to a less degree than some. When I apply for a job (which I have not done for a decade now), statistically I am going to be paid more for my work than a woman or a black person hired to the same job. That is well established. When I walk down the street, I do not experience what my children do (i.e., people crossing the street, or looking away) because I am white. When I am stopped for speeding, the attitude of the police officer who approaches me has a significant chance of being distinctly different than it is for a black man or a black woman. there are a variety of things I experience each day that are a beenfit I experience from my race and gender. These are not things I did anything to earn. They are simply realities I benefit from. To take on some responsibility for helping others who do not experience these benefits, whatever their color or gender, is simply justice, IMO.

Your privilege is entirely due to being a liberal. If you were to become a right winger in any meaningful way you would find it all drain away.

[Darth Executor]

We ARE all different - and we are sometimes advantaged by things over which we had no control.

My son's teacher is the track coach for the school. He gave the students an object lesson in privilege on day, which I found refreshing (and I think I have related elsewhere). He took his class out to the track and told them they were gooing to run a 440 (one lap). He lined the students up, but then he told them, "before I fire the starting gun, I'm going to read this list. Each time you hear something that applies to you, I want you to tak ethree steps forward." Then he read a list something like the following:

• You are white
• You are male
• Both of your parents are alive
• Both of your parents are at home
• Your family lives on one income with one parent at home full time
• You have never had to get a job to help pay the bills
• Your parents have set aside all/most of your college money (the class was seniors)
• You have never been in the hospital overnight
• Your parents drive you to/from school or have provided a car for that purpose
• You do not have a diagnosed physical disability

The list went on, but you get the idea. Then, before starting the race, he said something like, "Before you start running, take a look at where you are on the track and who is behind you and ahead of you. Your position on this track has nothing to do with you - it is entirely due to things you benefit from but never controlled. When you finish the race, it will be you that ran it, and you that finished it. But when you cross that finish line, remember that those behind you had to work that much harder to get to the end, and you had to work harder than the people in front of you. That's what your life will be like."

I found it profound.

if someone pulled this crap on my kids there would probably be a fight.