Should Trump Resign Over "Hellhole" Comment?

[Mountain Man]

I've been doing some checking, and found this....

Even putting a positive spin on the changes seems to be a challenge.

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[carpedm9587]

I remember us careening down those "switchback" turns on the mountain headed to and from the Citadel, and the bus would lean out as we made a turn, and you'd be looking over the edge of a cliff that seemed like thousands of feet down. I think the driver was purposely giving us a thrill so we'd get the whole impact.

I had similar rides in Jamaica. In Haiti, the trip to the Bayonnaise valley, which is beautiful, includes the main Haitian highway up the west coast, back dirt roads similar to the ones we traveled in Jamaica, and the last segment is navigated by driving up a dry river bed, which can only be done when it's actually dry (which is, unfortunately, all too often). The return trip has to be carefully planned between rains during the rainy season.

Most of the land and the people I have seen are indeed beautiful. The portions of Haiti that are truly "hellholes" are real, and they represent a large segment of the urban landscape. They don't represent the majority of the country or the people by a longshot. Indeed, I found a lot of similarities between this country and Tanzania, where we did a sustainable water project last year. Poor - yes. Lacking infrastructure and resources - yes. By the cushy metrics Americans use to measure "comfort," it is an uncomfortable place without question. And there are broad cultural issues that make it very hard to get traction on self-sustaining, locally sourced, infrastructure. There is much work to be done in and for this country.

[Sparko]

To both you and Sparko - I don't share your lack of concern for the use of language. I think it leaves an impression with people who do not know any better - who have never traveled outside the U.S. and have no framework for comparison. I hear descriptions of places I have actually been to from people who have never left their town, state, or country that are WAY off the mark, and are simply ignorant. Then they argue for policies on the basis of these broad descriptions.

I think it also does harm to countries who depend, to some degree, on tourism to the more beautiful areas. While I think O'Brien's characterization was likewise overly simplistic, it at least has the benefit of enticing some people to visit and spend their dollars on the island. That helps the local economy - though not as much as it would if most of those resorts weren't owned by international corporations that take the profits odff the island. At least, however, it provides employment for many of the local people.

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[Adrift]

Your post suggests that your are not concerned with the general reference to Haiti as a hellhole - you seem to be arguing that it is apt because it reflects how people commonly use language. I find in inapt - for the reasons I cited. I am challenging the status quo. I believe you (and those who defend such usage) are being more cavalier with the language than you should be, to the detriment of the people of countries like Haiti.

What are you talking about? Acknowledging how words are used in everyday speech doesn't tell you anything about what I'm concerned with. I told posters all the way back in post #78 how I felt about Donald Trump's language (if in fact he did use that language, which I think he probably did).

"I think the idea of Trump calling these nations $###holes is beyond pathetic. The concept of diplomacy, rhetoric, grace, etc., is completely lost on him. I think he's an egotistical, short-sighted, and insufferable blowhard who should probably resign simply because he can't edit his internal monologue. He's a terrible example, not just as the leader of the free world, but of someone in a position of influence to begin with. What makes matters worse is that he's probably not alone in thinking and acting the way he does as a person of power, wealth, and influence. Lot of others get away with it simply because they're not under as great a microscope. That said, I don't think he's a racist. Or at least, I haven't heard anything from him that makes me think he's a racist. A xenophobe, probably. A conspiracy nut, sure. Ill-mannered, definitely. A racist...., not so much."

At this point - this discussion has wound on long enough, IMO. I've said what I think, and will leave the rest of you to close it up.

[carpedm9587]

What are you talking about?

In response to your question, my last post was with respect to this from you:

I think you're taking this a little too literally. Detroit is a hellhole, but I love hanging out there. Just because there are plenty of places in Detroit that are not out and out hellish, and just because there are plenty of people who are kind and wonderful, doesn't make the place any less a hellhole. Typically when we refer to "hellholes", we're contrasting the extremes of two places. America is not a hellhole compared to a place like Haiti, nor is Detroit a hellhole compared to say, Sao Paulo, but Detroit is a hellhole compared to most American cities, and America may be a hellhole for someone from, say...I don't know...Iceland? It's relative, but people usually know what exaggerated language like that means in normal conversation. This is sort of what I was talking about in my post above.

[Adrift]

In response to your question, my last post was with respect to this from you:

Uh, yeah. I remember the flow of the conversation just fine.

[rogue06]

So, I've been wondering about all this "Haiti is a beautiful country" and "hellhole", and thinking about how that fit with my own personal experiences in Haiti.

I have to admit that 99% of my time in Haiti was in the "hellhole" parts - in the mountains, clinics, ghettos, orphanages.... then there's the "bad part" of the ghetto called "the shadows" (because it's in the shadow of the ghetto). We visited Club Med that one time, and it was obviously a very stark contrast.

Even going to visit the Citadel was an experience through "hellhole" regions of Haiti on a "taptap" (a VW microbus that contained 14 or so people, with another dozen riding on top in a wire rack )

But I realize my last personal visit was nearly 20 years ago, and I'm still only in contact with people (friends and missionaries) who only deal with the "hellhole" regions. So, I've been doing some checking, and found this....

Even putting a positive spin on the changes seems to be a challenge.

I was there around the time you were and hellhole barely begins to describe some of the things I saw. Several of us were armed and when some Haitian military types saw us we figured we were gonna be in for some trouble but their captain looked at our firearms (some of which were assault rifles), nodded, and recommended that we keep them close.

I can only pray that things have improved significantly.

[Cow Poke]

I was there around the time you were and hellhole barely begins to describe some of the things I saw. Several of us were armed and when some Haitian military types saw us we figured we were gonna be in for some trouble but their captain looked at our firearms (some of which were assault rifles), nodded, and recommended that we keep them close.

I can only pray that things have improved significantly.

We were actually in Haiti when Baby Doc's regime fell. We were in an old school bus on the way back to our DC-3 at the airport, and were stopped by a bunch of military thugs with machine guns. Some of them were ordering us out of the bus, but there was a lot of yelling on their radio, and their commander finally demanded "stay here - I come back" and they went roaring off to wherever. Our bus driver floored it, we got to the airport (which we could see from where we were stopped) and the DC-3 was already revved up and ready for take-off. We ran through "customs" (a shack with a couple of lunch tables) ignoring the guards, jumped on our plane, and made it out of there alive.

That night, in Miami, we watched on the news as rioting and mayhem swept through the cities. Fortunately, the Houston area channels didn't carry any of this news (too remote) or my wife would have been scared to death.

Just prior to that, on one of our trips, we had made friends with the driver of our bus, and I asked him something about the government. He actually stopped the bus, reached into a pouch, and produced a pearl handled model 1911 and a badge and said "you are my friend - I like you - do not ask questions or talk about the government, because I am Tonton Macoute*, and I will have to report you." ( gulp )


*for those who don't know - these were Baby Doc's informants/thugs/enforcers.

[Mountain Man]

But it's a beautiful country, isn't it? I understand the drinks served in coconuts are quite tasty. Conan knows what I'm talking about.

[rogue06]

But it's a beautiful country, isn't it? I understand the drinks served in coconuts are quite tasty. Conan knows what I'm talking about.

Boy did he sure come off looking like a putz.

[Juvenal]

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idgi

[Darth Executor]

That helps the local economy - though not as much as it would if most of those resorts weren't owned by international corporations that take the profits odff the island.

Who do you think built the resorts? You're acting like they sprung out of thin air and evil corporations just squat there and demand rent.

[Sparko]

idgi

"Climb down off your high horse."

[carpedm9587]

Who do you think built the resorts? You're acting like they sprung out of thin air and evil corporations just squat there and demand rent.

I have been in the Carribean, and seen what American corporations do. Check out the history of the aluminum industry in the Carribean for an example. There are ways major corporations could build and make money and still help support the local economy more than they do. Right now, the primary aid to the local economy is jobs, but they tend to be minimum wage jobs. Most of these hotels bring in most of their management staff from outside, using local labor primarily for low-wage positions (waiters, dishwashers, housekeepers, etc.). It's better than nothing, but it's not what it could be.

[Cow Poke]

I have been in the Carribean, and seen what American corporations do. Check out the history of the aluminum industry in the Carribean for an example. There are ways major corporations could build and make money and still help support the local economy more than they do. Right now, the primary aid to the local economy is jobs, but they tend to be minimum wage jobs. Most of these hotels bring in most of their management staff from outside, using local labor primarily for low-wage positions (waiters, dishwashers, housekeepers, etc.). It's better than nothing, but it's not what it could be.

In a utopian world, corporations would exist to give everybody high paying jobs and have positive effects on the environment. In the real world, most corporations exist to make money. If you were the owner of a hotel or resort (chain or not), would you NOT want your experienced trained people to be the ones actually running the place? ALL corporations could do better than they do on economy and local impact, but that's not why they're in business.