Originally posted by tabibito
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Record Cold, US and Europe: Global Warming?
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThere's enough evidence out there telling us that the official "adjusted" data can't be trusted, and the raw numbers always tell a different story. Besides, that article pulls the same "average" bait-and-switch that I warned about earlier.
Anyway, that's now what I was asking: Who predicted that global warming would cause record cold temperatures? Nobody predicted that, because it doesn't make a lick of sense. On the contrary, we were told that cold and snow would be a thing of the past by now. And this isn't just a fluke, either.
Likewise, when you look at ALL dates of the year, across ALL countries, the overwhelming trend is towards warming.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostThis appears to be another tactic being used by climate change deniers - but the evidence is not what it appears. Acid rain was real, and environmental controls were implemented, especially into the 1990s, that significantly changed acidification. It appears that this was a success story of what CAN be done when we set out to do it: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-dirty-legacy/
The article is specific to the Appalachian area, so cannot be contrued to be "global," but the sources it cites appear to check out (I spot-checked a few).Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostUmm... the first seems to me to be obvious. If you take the average temperature per day at specific locations around the planet, you can derive the average daily high at that location. You can then plot that location over time. If you assign a color to those points, and do it for points around the planet consistently, you can then get a trendline for what is happening globally. If more of the spots show an increasing average temperature, then the global trend is to warming. If, over time, more of those spots show a decreasing temperature, then the trend is to global cooling. If there is a random or flat distribution, then the climate is relatively stable. I'mnot sure why you would have a problem with that, from a mathematical basis.
I actually said nothing about "better" or "worse." When the climate changes, there are corresponding consequences to ecology, geology, and other earth systems. Some of those will be positive (e.g., farming areas extending northwards, longer growing seasons) and others will be negative (e.g., impact of rising seas on coastal cities, weather events with increasing severity, etc.). Others are difficult to predict (e.g., migration of species, extermination of species, etc.).Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNonsense, ph levels were going up long before the clean air act of 90, I gave the graft earlier. And carp, I'm not climate change denier, I believe the climate has been changing since the earth has been around.
As for the term "climate change denier," I used the term in a general sense - not necessarily specific to you. In general, one of the tactics used by those who deny the reality of the current trend in global climate change is to point to the Acid Rain "scare" as an example of why not to listen to the climate change claims.
In my experience, "climate change denier" can mean a range of things to different people, including:
- denying that climate change is occurring at all
- denying that the current trend is towards warming
- denying the humans activity is having a measurable impact on it
- denying that human action can make a difference
Based on your responses, I am assuming that #1 is not a fit, but one or #2-4 is?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Not so long since, #3 would have read "human activity is the sole cause," and anyone positing #3 would have been howled down and called some rather interesting names.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
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Originally posted by seer View PostI asked what the average for the earth's temperature should be. There isn't one.
Originally posted by seer View PostRight so we have no idea if a warmer earth, over all, will be worse. As a matter of fact, as the earth gets greener there is more plant life to suck up Co2...
Personally, the outcomes I am already seeing happening are not ones I like, and I would love to see us reduce emissions and reduce the rate of warming. I love glaciers, I fear for those who live water-side, the escalation in extreme weather events/droughts/floods is destabilizing, and the rest of the negative effects are not ones I would like to see happen.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostIn my experience, "climate change denier" can mean a range of things to different people, including:
- denying that climate change is occurring at all
- denying that the current trend is towards warming
- denying the humans activity is having a measurable impact on it
- denying that human action can make a difference
Based on your responses, I am assuming that #1 is not a fit, but one or #2-4 is?Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by tabibito View PostNot so long since, #3 would have read "human activity is the sole cause," and anyone positing #3 would have been howled down and called some rather interesting names.
It's all about what consequences we want to live with and which ones we do not. Denying any of this is occurring is just pointless, IMO. Nature won't care. It will keep doing what it is doing.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostAs far as I know, there is no "should be." The average temperate of the earth is measurable and climbing. What impact that has is then the issue. The earth has no "should." We humans have a "should." So, if we like ocean levels where they are, and ecosystems as they are, the average temperature should be what it has been in the last two millenia. If we think higher oceans are better, the average temperature "should be" warmer. If the think lower oceans are better, the average temperaturew "should be" lower.
Yes, that is one possibility. With it comes the rest of the consequences of a warmer earth. So it's a question of what we consider to be "desirable consequence" and what we consider to be "undesirable consequences." There is also evidence to suggest the possibility of "runaway" warming. Should we someday cross that boundary (and it is not clear we will), then the earth could enter a feedback warming loop similar to that currently in progress on Venus. That is unlikely to happen in my lifetime or even my children's lifetime. There are some models that show it as an increasing likelihood - but sort of like eating too much fat increases your likelihood of cancer. If the probability of cancer is 0.1% and the consumption of fat increases it 50%, you now have a 0.15% chance of getting cancer. So the fear pundits tend to exaggerate those things - the the detriment of the overall message.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostI don't deny one or two. Three is possible, but to what degree. As far as four, no, as long as we don't reign in new industrial countries like China, India, and others, which we won't - it won't make a significant difference what we in the west do.
I also think there is an ethical issue here. The U.S. has contributed close to 1/3 of the CO2 increase in the past 100 years. We benefited from those years of polution with an incredibly powerful economy. Now the entire world is seeing the shifts, and the entire world is saying, "let's get to work doing something." The shifts are small, at first, and developing countries are loath to give up the same technologies that saw the U.S. to such an economic edge. But for us to say, "if you won't do it, we won't" is, to me, a morally cowardly position. It's arrogant. And I think it is, in the long term, a serious mistake. There is a solid trend towards renewal energy. Right now, China has a significant lead, dominating both the wind and solar power industry. So what I see is thus: fissil fuels are increasingly seen as damaging, and are a limited resource (there is a finite amount of these things in the ground). That supply MAY be adequate for another 100-200 years, but it WILL eventually exhaust. So the fossil fuels industry is necessarily going to die - eventually. Renewables, however, cannot die as long as the sun keeps shining.
So if the U.S. digs in its heels, insists on promoting fossil fuels as the rest of the world continues to press forward with renewables, the inevitable outcome is clear: when the fossil fuels industry inevitably dies, other countries will be well established in renewables, and the U.S. will become the customer and the dependent - rather than the source and the leader. The day when fossil fuels dies may be years, decades or a century away - but that does not matter. The renewables industry is starting NOW. China is already in the lead. It is a race - and we have, IMO, hobbled ourselves with a "dig, baby, dig" mentality. Instead of investing U.S. resources in this new field, we are investing time/energy bolstering fossil fuels.
Long term - that is (IMO) a losing strategy.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by seer View PostRight there is no average temp. At times the earth was much cooler, and much warmer - and when it was warmer we had robust plant and animal life.
YOu seem to be caught in that "binary thinking" thing again.
Originally posted by seer View PostOh please, Venus! This is what I mean about you alarmists! The north pole was once tropical, did we turn into Venus then?
As far as I know, when Antarctica was a topic zone, we were not dealing with warmig as a result of extensive CO2 in the atmosphere. Global warming (or cooling) can be impacted by multiple factors. Not all of them are prone to "runaway" warming (or cooling). If the atmosphere crosses a particular CO2 boundary, the math and climate science says we can (not will) enter a feedback loop. As I carefully noted, the probability of this is small - and the theme is exagerrated by climate-change pundits. It certainly does not have a short-term risk. The risk increases, however, the longer the CO2 issue remains unaddressed. On that the science is fairly clear. It does not become "probable" in our lifetime or even our children's lifetimes under ANY model. BUt if the trajectory of CO2 build-up does not change, it does eventually shift from "possible" to "probable."Last edited by carpedm9587; 12-31-2017, 01:04 PM.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
Comment
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNot according to NASA: https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard...-at-both-polesSome may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI was using "we" collectively - "the world." Not just the U.S.
I also think there is an ethical issue here. The U.S. has contributed close to 1/3 of the CO2 increase in the past 100 years. We benefited from those years of polution with an incredibly powerful economy. Now the entire world is seeing the shifts, and the entire world is saying, "let's get to work doing something." The shifts are small, at first, and developing countries are loath to give up the same technologies that saw the U.S. to such an economic edge. But for us to say, "if you won't do it, we won't" is, to me, a morally cowardly position. It's arrogant. And I think it is, in the long term, a serious mistake. There is a solid trend towards renewal energy. Right now, China has a significant lead, dominating both the wind and solar power industry. So what I see is thus: fissil fuels are increasingly seen as damaging, and are a limited resource (there is a finite amount of these things in the ground). That supply MAY be adequate for another 100-200 years, but it WILL eventually exhaust. So the fossil fuels industry is necessarily going to die - eventually. Renewables, however, cannot die as long as the sun keeps shining.
So if the U.S. digs in its heels, insists on promoting fossil fuels as the rest of the world continues to press forward with renewables, the inevitable outcome is clear: when the fossil fuels industry inevitably dies, other countries will be well established in renewables, and the U.S. will become the customer and the dependent - rather than the source and the leader. The day when fossil fuels dies may be years, decades or a century away - but that does not matter. The renewables industry is starting NOW. China is already in the lead. It is a race - and we have, IMO, hobbled ourselves with a "dig, baby, dig" mentality. Instead of investing U.S. resources in this new field, we are investing time/energy bolstering fossil fuels.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
Comment
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Record levels of Antarctic ice. First I've heard of it. It's gone from record high in 2014 to record low this year. Some rather wild fluctuations, but the overall trend is down.1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
.⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Scripture before Tradition:
but that won't prevent others from
taking it upon themselves to deprive you
of the right to call yourself Christian.
⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
Comment
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