Originally posted by Starlight
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Assessment of Mr. Trump
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The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYour data, however, omits the vast sea of independents out there.
Pew's finding was that on major issues, the vast majority of the self-proclaimed 'independents' largely agree with the stances of the party they 'leaned toward':
What this tells you is that most of these 'independents' aren't calling themselves 'independents' because they (a) disagree with both party's positions on major issues, or (b) are centrists. Instead it is (c) while agreeing with one of the party's positions on most major issues they have an intense dislike of something not-directly-issue-based about that party (I'm guessing it's mostly that they feel that the politicians in the party are smarmy and corrupt)
For example, were I American, I would fall squarely into the category of "democrat-leaning independent" like Bernie Sanders does. I took Pews little values poll and it classified me as a "disaffected democrat" - one of the groups on the Pew chart that you seemed to feel was part of your imagined centrist coalition. (News flash - I'm not a centrist - I'm to the left of Bernie Sanders and would align closely with Jeremy Corbyn.)"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostFinally!!!
You appear to be in competition with him, relative to telling the truth. I think that may be one of the reasons you hate him so badly - he reminds you of you.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI don't believe it does. People who view themselves as 'independent' are included in all the above Pew data (with the slight exception of charts 2&3 which only include independents who say they 'lean democrat' or 'lean republican') In studying 'independents' Pew notes that the vast majority of them lean toward one of the two parties (and hence are included in charts 2&3 above), and only 6% of the US populace is both self-described 'independents' and do not say they 'lean toward' one of the two major parties.
Pew's finding was that on major issues, the vast majority of the self-proclaimed 'independents' largely agree with the stances of the party they 'leaned toward':
What this tells you is that most of these 'independents' aren't calling themselves 'independents' because they (a) disagree with both party's positions on major issues, or (b) are centrists. Instead it is (c) while agreeing with one of the party's positions on most major issues they have an intense dislike of something not-directly-issue-based about that party (I'm guessing it's mostly that they feel that the politicians in the party are smarmy and corrupt)
For example, were I American, I would fall squarely into the category of "democrat-leaning independent" like Bernie Sanders does. I took Pews little values poll and it classified me as a "disaffected democrat" - one of the groups on the Pew chart that you seemed to feel was part of your imagined centrist coalition. (News flash - I'm not a centrist - I'm to the left of Bernie Sanders and would align closely with Jeremy Corbyn.)
I think you are misreading the Pew Data.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostOK - look at those charts. The one on the left identfies (ironically) those who are consistently/mostly conservative, and what pools they hail from - and the graph on the right (ironically) is about those who are consistently/mostly liberal. Extraolating from that data and using 2015 numbers, if 5% of democratic identifiers are consistently/mostly conservative, and 62% are consistently/mostly liberal, that leaves 33% that are in the middle or moderate. Run those numbers for all five groups and you come to the rough distribution I am seeing in the rest of my research: 38-40% moderate, mid30s% conservative, high 20s% liberal.
I think you are misreading the Pew Data.
Can you explain to me what you think the "political center" consists of? (I'm inherently skeptical of using the term 'centrist', since from an international perspective the democrats are center to right-wing, and the republicans are off-the-charts-ultra-right-wing, but I get you mean in between those two parties) What kind of policies would you expect this hypothetical centrist party to stand for? How would they have voted on the recent tax bill? How would they differ from the average corporate-democrat? How would they differ from Joe Manchin?"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostNo.
Since then, I have found that an average of about 60% of what he says that I have followed up on and checked proveds to be wrong. Normally, I would simply write that off as an uninformed person flapping their lips. But because he has 1) told me he is willing to lie to me, and 2) continued to push incorrect messages even when documented proof it is wrong is presented, I conclude that he is not just ill informed - he is intentionally lying to achieve an end.
But you apparently think otherwise? Can you confirm that and, if so, explain?
P.S. My 60% score is actually LOWER than what most fact-check sites have quoted as a statistic. Many of these quote numbers in the high sixties and even into the 70s.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostReally? I have to admit this surprises me. Trump has explicitly said (Art of the Deal), that lying is an acceptable activity if it gets you what you want. That immediately undercut his credibility to me - because he has explicitly said he will lie to me if it achieves his ends.
Since then, I have found that an average of about 60% of what he says that I have followed up on and checked proveds to be wrong. Normally, I would simply write that off as an uninformed person flapping their lips. But because he has 1) told me he is willing to lie to me, and 2) continued to push incorrect messages even when documented proof it is wrong is presented, I conclude that he is not just ill informed - he is intentionally lying to achieve an end.
But you apparently think otherwise? Can you confirm that and, if so, explain?
P.S. My 60% score is actually LOWER than what most fact-check sites have quoted as a statistic. Many of these quote numbers in the high sixties and even into the 70s.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm agnostic on this, Carpe. I have no axe to grind - I'm not a Trump supporter, but neither am I his judge. I have expressed numerous times I wish somebody would take his Twitter account from him - he is his own worst enemy. He will answer for his own conduct, both here and in the after life.
As much as he protests that the "MSM" wants to shut down his twitter feed - that's the LAST thing they want. No other president has provided such an unfiltered view into his mind - not that it wouldn't benefit from a bit of filtering
About that afterlife thing...
The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm not a Trump supporter, but neither am I his judge."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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