Professor under fire for telling students they have to work hard.

[Sparko]

I was arguing that med school can be too stressful and unhealthy and a similar environment could be present in other academic disciplines. You keep saying things I agree with assuming I don't, like this last line of the reply I'm quoting. The stressors I'm talking about exist to an abnormal degree and harm otherwise healthy individuals resulting in depression and suicide.

So we should what? close down medical schools? What is your point?

and what does med school have to do with this story about a physics professor at Cambridge?

[Psychic Missile]

So we should what? close down medical schools? What is your point?

and what does med school have to do with this story about a physics professor at Cambridge?

Med schools have already taken steps to solves the issue. See here and here.

As I said in my first post in the thread, based on my looking into the issue, a number of students believe there to be a problem at Cambridge with a school/life balance not dissimilar to the problems med school students face, and that is why there was a negative reaction. I agree that in a vacuum the professor's email is innocuous, but if there is a problem at Cambridge it's understandable why some students might be upset.

[Darth Executor]

the prof's email isn't a big deal but it's not innocuous either, it's condescending and engages in needless fearmongering.

[Mountain Man]

the prof's email isn't a big deal but it's not innocuous either, it's condescending and engages in needless fearmongering.

Not uncommon behavior for college professors.

[Jedidiah]

Med schools have already taken steps to solves the issue. See here and here.

As I said in my first post in the thread, based on my looking into the issue, a number of students believe there to be a problem at Cambridge with a school/life balance not dissimilar to the problems med school students face, and that is why there was a negative reaction. I agree that in a vacuum the professor's email is innocuous, but if there is a problem at Cambridge it's understandable why some students might be upset.

Probably the biggest problem I see in this is the fact that it is now almost mandatory for decent students to go to college. Not everyone is suited for higher education. Most college students seem to be suited for some other endeavor.

[Sparko]

Probably the biggest problem I see in this is the fact that it is now almost mandatory for decent students to go to college. Not everyone is suited for higher education. Most college students seem to be suited for some other endeavor.

Crying and burning cars?

[Mountain Man]

Probably the biggest problem I see in this is the fact that it is now almost mandatory for decent students to go to college. Not everyone is suited for higher education. Most college students seem to be suited for some other endeavor.

College degrees used to be so prized because they weren't customary, but you could still have a good career without one; you just wouldn't necessarily land a management position, but the difference in pay between managers and their staff wasn't so dramatic. Then it became if you wanted a good paying job then you needed a degree. These days, even many entry level jobs require a college degree, and a recent study found that wages for those without college degrees have been stagnant since the mid-1990's. Now it seems like we're getting to the point where even a bachelors degree isn't enough, and for the best paying positions you need a masters or doctorate.

All this is to say that the reason so many people are pursuing a college degree -- even those not necessarily well-suited for it -- is because of how vital it has become in the workforce.

Or, if you're smart, you'll get a job as a high school janitor. Don't laugh. People who have worked a few decades as a janitor are doing very well for themselves and will enjoy a comfortable retirement.

[Sparko]

College degrees used to be so prized because they weren't customary, but you could still have a good career without one; you just wouldn't necessarily land a management position, but the difference in pay between managers and their staff wasn't so dramatic. Then it became if you wanted a good paying job then you needed a degree. These days, even many entry level jobs require a college degree, and a recent study found that wages for those without college degrees have been stagnant since the mid-1990's. Now it seems like we're getting to the point where even a bachelors degree isn't enough, and for the best paying positions you need a masters or doctorate.

All this is to say that the reason so many people are pursuing a college degree -- even those not necessarily well-suited for it -- is because of how vital it has become in the workforce.

Or, if you're smart, you'll get a job as a high school janitor. Don't laugh. People who have worked a few decades as a janitor are doing very well for themselves and will enjoy a comfortable retirement.

I got lucky and got in on a career before there WAS any real college degrees for it: Computers. There were Computer Science degrees to some extent but that was really only for high end government or scientific jobs at the time working in theory or mainframes. Nothing in college for PC tech that was becoming popular in businesses. So they took what they could get: self taught people like me. Then by the time college degrees were needed to even get into the field, I already had so much experience that it didn't matter that I didn't have a degree in computers. Usually when you have a decade or two of experience in the workforce in a subject they don't really care if you have a degree or not. I do have a degree in electronics though but I don't use it specifically.

[Mountain Man]

My dad has worked in computers pretty much his whole career, but his degree is in mathematics and engineering. In the mid-1970s, he was the head of the computer department at a major aircraft manufacturer.

[guacamole]

I would add onto this discussion of the fact that not everyone should go to college, but there is the en masse abandonment of vocational programs in high school. Most high schools--I have no idea of statistics, I say this as a professional in the business--have moved to "college prep" curricula. And this is the tale that wags all the dogs now--students and schools are measured against college readiness standards, given the option to only take college readiness type electives, and forced to follow a certain path or be doomed to menial labor because they cannot get a job other than retail or food service if they aren't "college ready" or don't want to go the community college to pay to take remedial courses for no credit.

Our school, which sits in a blue collar community, nestled among various factory districts, recently put in a state of the art machine shop because when the superintendent went to ask business owners what they needed, they told him that the average age of a machinist in the factories in town was 50, that they were looking to use h1b visas to import foreign skilled labor to do these jobs.

College was once the extended adolescence of the upper class. Now it's the extended adolescence of everyone. And we need to funnel kids to colleges lest the secondary ed bubble pop.

It's crazy.

fwiw,
guacamole

[Sparko]

I would add onto this discussion of the fact that not everyone should go to college, but there is the en masse abandonment of vocational programs in high school. Most high schools--I have no idea of statistics, I say this as a professional in the business--have moved to "college prep" curricula. And this is the tale that wags all the dogs now--students and schools are measured against college readiness standards, given the option to only take college readiness type electives, and forced to follow a certain path or be doomed to menial labor because they cannot get a job other than retail or food service if they aren't "college ready" or don't want to go the community college to pay to take remedial courses for no credit.

Our school, which sits in a blue collar community, nestled among various factory districts, recently put in a state of the art machine shop because when the superintendent went to ask business owners what they needed, they told him that the average age of a machinist in the factories in town was 50, that they were looking to use h1b visas to import foreign skilled labor to do these jobs.

College was once the extended adolescence of the upper class. Now it's the extended adolescence of everyone. And we need to funnel kids to colleges lest the secondary ed bubble pop.

It's crazy.

fwiw,
guacamole

I sort of agree with Sanders that college should be free.

It is almost a necessity to go to college nowadays. And if that is the case then it should be included in the standard state educational system K thru 12 [+C]

At least perhaps to a "standard" degree in some trade like "business" or "Engineering" and if you want a more high end or specialized degree like medicine, law, etc, you pay for that at a private school.

But I would eliminate degrees that do do not lead to an actual career, like purely academic degrees (except those meant for creating teachers) like philosophy, women's studies, etc. They can be taught at private colleges. We shouldn't spend tax payer money to teach someone to be unemployed or unemployable after graduating.

[Jedidiah]

I sort of agree with Sanders that college should be free.

It is almost a necessity to go to college nowadays. And if that is the case then it should be included in the standard state educational system K thru 12 [+C]

At least perhaps to a "standard" degree in some trade like "business" or "Engineering" and if you want a more high end or specialized degree like medicine, law, etc, you pay for that at a private school.

But I would eliminate degrees that do do not lead to an actual career, like purely academic degrees (except those meant for creating teachers) like philosophy, women's studies, etc. They can be taught at private colleges. We shouldn't spend tax payer money to teach someone to be unemployed or unemployable after graduating.

No. I vote with guac on this issue.

[Sparko]

No. I vote with guac on this issue.

the problem is, most white collar and tech jobs require a college degree to even get in the door nowadays. They put it in the job ad.

[ke7ejx]

I sort of agree with Sanders that college should be free.

It is almost a necessity to go to college nowadays. And if that is the case then it should be included in the standard state educational system K thru 12 [+C]

At least perhaps to a "standard" degree in some trade like "business" or "Engineering" and if you want a more high end or specialized degree like medicine, law, etc, you pay for that at a private school.

But I would eliminate degrees that do do not lead to an actual career, like purely academic degrees (except those meant for creating teachers) like philosophy, women's studies, etc. They can be taught at private colleges. We shouldn't spend tax payer money to teach someone to be unemployed or unemployable after graduating.

Would that include one of the degrees I'm graduating with in six month's time- History?

[Darth Executor]

Probably the biggest problem I see in this is the fact that it is now almost mandatory for decent students to go to college. Not everyone is suited for higher education. Most college students seem to be suited for some other endeavor.

This is true, but it's still far from mandatory for decent students to go to college. About a third of the richest people in the world have no college degree at all. That's the top education demographic. The next 20% are engineering graduates.