Roy Moore accused of sexual contact with 14-year old

[Darth Executor]

If Moore lived in the old testament he'd have had absolutely no trouble getting not just one but several teenage girls as wives given his achievements. And by several accounts Moore DID have the mothers' approval, and when he didn't he backed off.

[Sparko]

Part of the mess in this is that we are talking about modern courtship rituals and talking about how appropriate it would have been based on ancient Jewish mores. It most definitely would have been immoral, in ancient Palestine, for a 30 year old man to show up expecting to court a young lady--of any marriageable age--without a male relative present, let alone use that as the mate-finding process. He could not secure permission to court a young lady from her mother, it would have come from her nearest male relative, and he or another minder would have been there monitoring all interactions. In any case, there would have been no courtship, it would have been an arranged marriage sealed with agreements between the father or other male relative and the prospective groom.

It's anachronistic nonsense that combines our culture's comparatively promiscuous mate selection ritual with the Biblical allowance for a much older man to marry a much younger woman. Moore cannot claim to have Biblical backing on this. If Moore had indeed done things in a more Biblical way, he'd be beyond reproach, unable to be accused of assaulting a minor because, at the very least, a relative would have been present. Instead, having allegedly cruised malls, made a pass at a girl at court, and made unpermitted remarks (without the permission of a male relative) in personal correspondence, he comes across, at worst as a creeper, and at best as a clumsy fool.

IOW, if we're going to argue the Biblical model, then argue it consistently and completely.

fwiw,
guacamole

I completely agree. I didn't even think of any of the oriental rituals that were in effect at the time like arranged marriages and so on. Nice job. Apples and Oranges.

[guacamole]

If Moore lived in the old testament he'd have had absolutely no trouble getting not just one but several teenage girls as wives given his achievements. And by several accounts Moore DID have the mothers' approval, and when he didn't he backed off.

No doubt. But he would have been expected to go through the proper channels. He did not go through the proper channels. He wouldn't have been allowed to be alone with his betrothed until the marriage was to be consummated, and the marriage couldn't be arranged by the mother, but with the nearest male relative, to whom Moore would have paid the bride price.

[Mountain Man]

No because we are talking society here not exceptions. Would you think it is morally OK for a 30 year old to marry an emotionally mature 14 year old (if there were no laws against it)?

"...we are talking society here not exceptions." I'm not sure what that means. Are you saying that it's immoral because society says it's immoral? That's a rather dangerous argument for a Christian to be making. And if you allow for exceptions then you concede my point that it's not inherently immoral.

But to answer your question, there would be nothing inherently immoral about an older man marrying an emotionally mature 14-year old, provided he was not violating any laws -- and I suppose social customs could be regarded as laws, but in that case, the moral problem is breaking the law and not marrying a 14-year old. As I mentioned earlier, Mary, the mother of Jesus, wasn't much older when she was given the greatest honor in human history and gave birth to our Savior, and Joseph her husband could have been anywhere from Mary's age to as much as 10-years older, based simply on Jewish tradition of the time. Obviously people mature at different rates, so I wouldn't say that every 14-year old would necessarily be emotionally mature enough to handle a responsibility like marriage, or giving birth to the Son of God, but there's nothing inherently immoral about a young woman (not girl) dating or marrying someone older than herself. Naturally there is an age where even someone emotionally mature is nothing more than an emotionally mature child, but that's before puberty.

There's obviously a social stigma against young women and older men today, and perhaps for good reason, but we shouldn't mistake social stigmas for moral ones.

[Darth Executor]

No doubt. But he would have been expected to go through the proper channels. He did not go through the proper channels. He wouldn't have been allowed to be alone with his betrothed until the marriage was to be consummated, and the marriage couldn't be arranged by the mother, but with the nearest male relative, to whom Moore would have paid the bride price.

He went through the proper channels as set by our culture. My point was that if Moore had been born back there he would have done the same thing and gone through the proper channels, which would have been trivial for him to do. The proper channels in our society, for people past the age of consent, is just the individual. If anything Moore went above and beyond the proper channels for our society as reported by several "accusers", which mostly accuse him of being considerably better behaved than the average man.

[One Bad Pig]

They did not depend on their parents for care when they were 16 or 17.

If they were not already married, they absolutely did - or they were prostitutes.

Today they live with their parents till they go off to college.

Back then, they lived with their parents until they were married.

As far as education goes, they didn't need schooling back then. Learning how to farm, grow food, take care of a home, raise children was all they needed and they knew that. They probably worked since they could walk. Back then there was no such thing as child labor. Putting a 12 year old to work back then was common too, but today we would consider it immoral to make our 12 year olds work a full time job.

Women generally didn't work, based on your apparent definition. They took care of stuff around the home. Are girls so sheltered today that their mothers don't teach them how to clean or cook?

[One Bad Pig]

I completely agree. I didn't even think of any of the oriental rituals that were in effect at the time like arranged marriages and so on. Nice job. Apples and Oranges.

Yes, guac's assumptions are apples and oranges. He's assuming (with zero evidence) that Moore would have acted the same way back then, which is anachronistic.

[Cow Poke]

It's a deflection.

EGGzackly - I bet he consulted with his publicist and/or legal counsel and said "how can get in front of this?"

[Cow Poke]

Women generally didn't work...

...outside the home.

[Teallaura]

A hearing isn't a trial. They can't do a trial on this because it was way too long ago. And a hearing for what? A hearing is usually regarding legal matters. Perhaps if he is suing her for defamation there would be a hearing but I don't see making a hearing to discuss the charges since they are not anything he can be charged with. Sounds like a delaying tactic to me.

Senate hearing, not a judicial hearing - they can have Senate hearings on what to have for breakfast if they like.

It is a delaying tactic - the Senate does not want to be dragged down this path.

[Teallaura]

I think the peak age for a woman is typically around 23, but it obviously can vary from person to person. The only reason for marrying younger than that wouldn't actually be to get a hotter girl, but simply to get one who will last longer.

Guys, unfortunately, peak mentally around 10.

Which is a little older than this debate makes you guys sound.

[Teallaura]

Yep, Moore very well might win regardless, and that would speak to the character of those Alabamans that voted for him. I mean, the guy wasn't fit for a Senate seat even before all of these sexual abuse allegations came up..

Only from your POV - you're not God, remember? You don't get to tell us how to think.

What this sounds like is that you're realizing the allegations are weak as heck (and then there's the mess with Franken) and trying to deflect your way out of it.

[Cow Poke]

Senate hearing, not a judicial hearing - they can have Senate hearings on what to have for breakfast if they like.

It is a delaying tactic - the Senate does not want to be dragged down this path.

A Senate hearing is for all intents and purposes a trial by the Senate....
But of course it's a delay tactic...

derp! I was thinking of a legal hearing in a courtroom.

never mind.

[Teallaura]

Yeah a grown man dating teenage girls in high school is immoral.

I don't think you can make this case. There are a number of conditions under which I would agree with this statement but a few under which I cannot see how it is immoral (unwise and a bad idea, yes). In the three cases that Moore does not deny the women all state that their parents approved. Now, I doubt you could convince me to let my hypothetical teenager date a 30 something adult, but I cannot see where this is in and of itself immoral.

I don't like it. It's still creepy. But it's not immoral.

And it's 38 years old with no indication of continuation. I see no relevance now.

[Teallaura]

It's a hypothetical, to be sure--my comment is in regards to if he does turn out to be guilty of assault. A Christian who slides into sexual violence needs to get his life in order before he engages in any sort of leadership. Claiming that it's okay because it was a long time ago and he has undoubtedly changed is not okay.

*emphasis mine

Um, who the heck is claiming THAT? Even Obsidian with the 'dating teens is okay' thing didn't go anywhere near saying that sexual violence is okay.

It wouldn't have been okay (if it occurred) - but if we were talking about a guy that did something like that 40 years ago and repented genuinely with no further occurrences, I don't see what objection you have to his holding office.