Mass Shooting Las Vegas...

[Mountain Man]

Sure. I think reducing the amount of weapons that are capable of doing massive harm in short order would be part of a multi-tiered response to violent crime. First and foremost is witnessing to people and expressing to them the changing power and love of Christ, and since a lot of violent crime happens in impoverished areas, we need to continue to find ways to help people move out and beyond their circumstances.

Someone sufficiently motivated can use a tree branch to commit mass murder.

[Sparko]

A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step and all that...

fortune cookie quotes don't solve anything.

If you did abolish the legal ownership of guns in the USA all you would be accomplishing is turning millions of Americans into illegal gun owners. Most people will not give up their guns.

The only thing all this push by the liberals for gun control and repealing the 2nd amendment is doing is actually driving UP gun and ammo sales. Just like when Obama did during his administration. Those bump-stocks that everyone wants to ban? The site that sells them is completely sold out with back orders out the wazoo.

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..and before all this, nobody even heard of these things.

[Adrift]

When terrorists killed 3000 people in 9/11 we didn't say we needed to ban planes.

You keep using this argument, and I don't think it's nearly as strong as you think it is. We didn't ban planes outright, because, unlike owning a gun for most people, banning planes would have been incredibly impractical. Instead we instituted major changes just getting onto a flight through an entirely new agency that was incorporated as a response to the incident. And then on the plane we now have armed air marshals. It's not like we sat back and didn't do anything after 9/11, we did major MAJOR things after that event. We got involved in two wars, created the Department of Homeland Security, changed how people travel every day, and so much more.

[Adrift]

Someone sufficiently motivated can use a tree branch to commit mass murder.

True, though if I had to face a guy with a tree branch or armed with a gun I'm going to choose the guy with the tree branch every time. Again, a multi-tiered response to violent crime starting with witnessing to people about the Gospel seems to me the best way to deal with the issue.

[Adrift]

fortune cookie quotes don't solve anything.

If you did abolish the legal ownership of guns in the USA all you would be accomplishing is turning millions of Americans into illegal gun owners. Most people will not give up their guns.

The only thing all this push by the liberals for gun control and repealing the 2nd amendment is doing is actually driving UP gun and ammo sales. Just like when Obama did during his administration. Those bump-stocks that everyone wants to ban? The site that sells them is completely sold out with back orders out the wazoo.

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..and before all this, nobody even heard of these things.

Fear will do that to people. Again, a multi-tiered tactic seems to me the best place to go. And, you know, doing something seems better than doing nothing. You have to start someplace if you want to solve a problem. Might not get solved in the next decade, or the decade after that, but nothing will get solved if you do absolutely nothing.

Also, I'm not a liberal, I'm a Christian.

[Sparko]

You keep using this argument, and I don't think it's nearly as strong as you think it is. We didn't ban planes outright, because, unlike owning a gun for most people, banning planes that would have been incredibly impractical, instead we instituted major changes just getting onto a flight through an entirely new agency that was incorporated as a response to the incident. And then on the plane we now have armed air marshals. It's not like we sat back and didn't do anything after 9/11, we did major MAJOR things after that event. We got involved in two wars, created the Department of Homeland Security, changed how people travel every day, and so much more.

we have always had armed marshals on planes, adrift. We have had security to get on planes long before 9/11. Yet we didn't BAN or ABOLISH planes. I have no problem with gun controls that make it safer to own guns. I do have a problem with trying to abolish ownership of them altogether.

[Sparko]

True, though if I had to face a guy with a tree branch or armed with a gun I'm going to choose the guy with the tree branch every time. Again, a multi-tiered response to violent crime starting with witnessing to people about the Gospel seems to me the best way to deal with the issue.

What if you were faced with a guy armed with a gun? Would you want to be unarmed? Or just have a tree branch? Or would you rather have a gun too? I would rather have a gun too. At least then I have a choice and a chance.

[Adrift]

we have always had armed marshals on planes, adrift. We have had security to get on planes long before 9/11. Yet we didn't BAN or ABOLISH planes. I have no problem with gun controls that make it safer to own guns. I do have a problem with trying to abolish ownership of them altogether.

Wikipedia tells me we went from approx. 33 active federal air marshals before 9/11 to approx. 4,000 as of 2013. And you're lying if you're telling me security getting onto a plane today was anything like it was before 9/11. As I said previously, I'm for abolition of guns, but will settle for stricter gun control.

[Roy]

Also, I'm not a liberal, I'm a Christian.

It is possible to be both

[Adrift]

What if you were faced with a guy armed with a gun? Would you want to be unarmed? Or just have a tree branch? Or would you rather have a gun too? I would rather have a gun too. At least then I have a choice and a chance.

This isn't the wild wild West anymore (or it oughtn't be). I'm not really into the idea of getting into a shootout with anyone, and in the case of the Vegas shooting, a bunch of armed civilians shooting into the dark side of a multi-storied hotel likely wasn't going to do anything except cause more chaos, confusion, and innocent harm. I was nearly mugged by an armed dude once. Ended up sharing a smoke with him, spent the night talking to him, and witnessed to him. By the next morning I had him weeping, and telling me that he wanted to change his life. I know that's not always going to be everyone's reality, but I don't want live in a mind state where every time I leave the house I have to make sure I'm packing because I'm afraid of whoever I might bump into on the street. That's not living for me.

[Adrift]

It is possible to be both

Sure, but it's not a label I accept. I'm not a conservative or a liberal. I'll stick with plain ol' Christian.

[Mountain Man]

Wikipedia tells me we went from approx. 33 active federal air marshals before 9/11 to approx. 4,000 as of 2013. And you're lying if you're telling me security getting onto a plane today was anything like it was before 9/11. As I said previously, I'm for abolition of guns, but will settle for stricter gun control.

The irony, of course, is that the 9/11 hijackers wielded relatively harmless box cutters.

[Zymologist]

This isn't the wild wild West anymore (or it oughtn't be). I'm not really into the idea of getting into a shootout with anyone, and in the case of the Vegas shooting, a bunch of armed civilians shooting into the dark side of a multi-storied hotel likely wasn't going to do anything except cause more chaos, confusion, and innocent harm. I was nearly mugged by an armed dude once. Ended up sharing a smoke with him, spent the night talking to him, and witnessed to him. By the next morning I had him weeping, and telling me that he wanted to change his life. I know that's not always going to be everyone's reality, but I don't want live in a mind state where every time I leave the house I have to make sure I'm packing because I'm afraid of whoever I might bump into on the street. That's not living for me.

Virtually everyone I know up here owns guns, and several of them have concealed carry permits, and I don't know anybody who thinks this way.

[Sparko]

Wikipedia tells me we went from approx. 33 active federal air marshals before 9/11 to approx. 4,000 as of 2013. And you're lying if you're telling me security getting onto a plane today was anything like it was before 9/11. As I said previously, I'm for abolition of guns, but will settle for stricter gun control.

no security is definitely worse now. But it doesn't fix a thing. It is reactive. Someone tries to bring a box cutter on board so they ban pocket knives. someone tries to sneak an explosive in shampoo bottles so they ban liquids. someone tries to sneak in something in their shoes so they make you take your shoes off. Well guess what? Unless you actually do ban flying altogether you are not going to stop determined criminals from inventing new ways to bring bombs or weapons on board. All you accomplish is making it more of a pain in the rear for law abiding people to use planes.

If criminals use guns and you abolish guns or keep tacking on restrictions, all you end up doing is making it harder for the legal gun owners to protect themselves. You do nothing to stop the criminals from getting or using guns.

[Sparko]

This isn't the wild wild West anymore (or it oughtn't be). I'm not really into the idea of getting into a shootout with anyone, and in the case of the Vegas shooting, a bunch of armed civilians shooting into the dark side of a multi-storied hotel likely wasn't going to do anything except cause more chaos, confusion, and innocent harm. I was nearly mugged by an armed dude once. Ended up sharing a smoke with him, spent the night talking to him, and witnessed to him. By the next morning I had him weeping, and telling me that he wanted to change his life. I know that's not always going to be everyone's reality, but I don't want live in a mind state where every time I leave the house I have to make sure I'm packing because I'm afraid of whoever I might bump into on the street. That's not living for me.

Tell that to the kids at the Sandy Hook massacre. or any other mass shooting where the gunman walks around killing people indiscriminately and nobody can stop him because they don't have guns. Sure in this particular instance there is nothing an armed person could do, but that is not the case in most incidences. And just thinking you are armed will deter a lot of criminals from messing with you. If muggers knew that most of the people they wanted to mug were armed you would have a lot less muggings.