Anatomy of a Stolen Election

[VonTastrophe]

2000 Mules?

Republicans seem to like to dream up alleged terrible things the Dems could have done, and then themselves get inspired to do it as a result of their belief the Dems are already doing it.

Are you sure it's not that Republicans are dreaming up terrible things, doing them, and then falsely accusing the Dems of doing them what they have just done? Cf. Karl Rove.

Let's see if nested quotes work.

I can easily imagine both scenarios. We know that some voter fraud did happen, and some of that was committed by Republicans.

We also know that the J6 insurrectionists (Proud Boys et. al) brought weapons because they expected "Antifa" to be there in force. They literally expected the other side to play dirty, which justified them playing dirty. The problem? Antifa doesn't exist (at least, as they imagine).

[Ronson]

Gaslighting, of course.

Could have been "contortions".

The expression refers to efforts to manipulating another person for the purpose of making them doubt their own senses, memory, or discernment. A good example of gaslighting is when Trump* and his goons convince millions of people the 2020 election was stolen when we can see for ourselves that it was not.

*(That is, Donald Trump, the known rapist, convicted felon, who appears to be sundowning in dementia)

That's not what I'm doing, of course. We have an adviser to Trump, Roger Stone, how is known to be a bad faith actor in Politics. That was the point of my entire preface. So when I interpret him to be speaking in bad faith, I am not gaslighting. I am just operating under the assumption that Stone is consistent to his own history.

IOW, it wasn't a matter of me misapplying the term, but rather your position that you weren't gaslighting.

In my experience, people gaslight with really lengthy explanations for a simple concept. They don't say "You didn't see a flying saucer, you saw a weather balloon." What they say is "You didn't see a riot, what you saw was a mostly peaceful protest where only a few participants firebombed a couple of uninhabited buildings because they didn't want to harm anyone, because they were trying to bring attention to a very important cause and it is necessary sometimes to go to extremes when the subject is important enough to be categorized as a crisis."

And that's why I am wary of lengthy posts. Maybe I should restate it as gaslighting combined with editorializing.

[JimL]

Donald J. Trump (the demented geriatric, known rapist, and convicted felon), is plotting to steel the 2024 election, with the help of Roger Stone.

You may find that that name, Roger Stone, sounds familiar. He was a political spy for Richard Nixon. He helped organize the Brooks Brothers Riot, an attempt to interfere with the 2000 Florida recount. In 2019, he was convicted of witness tampering, obstructing an official proceeding, and lying to Congress. However, he was pardoned before serving any time by Donald Trump (if you recall, that's the demented geriatric, known rapist, and also a convicted felon). (I'm referencing Wikipedia for toilet reading: Roger Stone)

So far so good?

Roger Stone was recently recorded during an event at Mar-a-Lago what sounds like a plot the overthrow of the 2024 election. All following quotes are from Roger Stone, however be aware that he is talking to what he thinks are MAGA supporters. He talks in a form of Newspeak which has to be interpreted.

For instance, he assumes that the 2020 election was stolen. (We know that as a matter of fact, there were a few hundred possible cases of voter fraud in 6 battleground states, affecting less than 0.2% of the count there (AP News, 2021-12-14). Often the fraud was committed by registered Republicans, like this keeper: Another voter fraud accusation blows up in Republicans’ faces CNN, 2021-11-21. I'm going to treat the fidelity of the 2020 election as settled, despite the lies of MAGA goons)

Donald Trump (the demented geriatric, known rapist, and convicted felon) has made suppositional assertions several times that the only way for Democrats to win is to cheat. (To date no evidence of widespread cheating has been given. Maybe the evidence fell out of Rudi's pocket on his way to the Georgia civil lawsuit (AP News, 2023-12-16). Maybe Fox News can find it before their next multibillion dollar lawsuit (ABC News, 2023-04-20) Roger Stone's statements need to be treated as though he's speaking to someone isn't aware that these lies are … lies.

Keeping up so far? Alright, here we go.

The following quotes, unless otherwise noted, are taken from the Rolling Stone article, ‘Lawyers, Judges, Technology’: Roger Stone Touts Plan for Trump Win in Secret Recording posted 2024-06-18



Here, when Stone says we'll "have a more honest election," he means they'll have an election that is rigged in favor of Trump. Remember that no widespread cheating has happened, only a lot of supposition. In the 2020 election, pro-Trump lawsuits were dropped left and right due to lack of evidence. However, this time they will have a Trump-appointed judge handy who will throw out the results in some voting precinct or district. Having a judge in your pocket would be worthless in a precinct that's overwhelmingly for Trump. So, for this to be of value it must be a judge that covers a battleground or Democrat precinct. Aileen Cannon would be an example, but there may be others. Whoever it is, they are must be bought off, or at least partial to MAGA in a way that is disgraceful for a judge.



For reference, "ballot harvesting" is the act of delivering completed absentee ballots on behalf of other people (What Is Ballot Harvesting?, 2024-04-22). Suppose you collect an absentee ballot from your elderly parent, or your spouse who's running late for work. You take it and deliver it to a polling station, you are a ballot harvester. It's not clear that anything is wrong with doing this. It's only illegal in Alabama, and many states have provisions on how to properly do it.



To be clear, Stone is saying that funds are diverted away from typical campaigning, by Lara Trump and other MAGAtwerps at the RNC, towards litigation. They are actually preparing to attack free and fair elections before they even occur. This premeditation makes the GOP no longer a political party; it's a litigious corporation more hostile to their enemies than Disney.

I'm glad that he mentioned changes in State laws. In 2021 there were 33 State laws that make voting harder (Voting Laws Roundup: October 2021, 2021-10-04), while in 2023 there were 17 (Voting Laws Roundup: October 2023 2023-10-19). Now, there were many more laws that made voting easier, and many of the restrictive laws involved ID requirements. (Some commentators complain that requiring photo IDs is a sort of poll tax and is unconstitutional. I think the impact to the election is going to be so tiny that it can be considered trivial for now.) I'll highlight some laws that should be conspicuously disturbing:

• In Georgia, it's illegal to hand out water bottles to voters waiting in line. I hope there's no heat wave this November
• In Texas, there will be fewer polling stations, so voters in mostly urban (i.e. Democrat) districts will have longer wait times
• In North Carolina, it is more likely for election boards to be deadlocked, preventing individual county elections (or even the State election) from being certified. No doubt we'll see deadlocks in more Democrat counties than Republican ones.

All well and good, except that Trump actually committed crimes. Anyone who follows the cases, not just through the Fox News/Newsmax filter, would understand that. Especially now that Trump was convicted.



So we are now talking about allegedly judges, plural, corrupted and on standby to interfere with free and fair elections.

I'm curious now, what technology might Stone be referring to? Nothing specific is discussed, and the options are limitless. Russian Troll farms? Deep fakes, cheap fakes, shallow fakes? AI bots? Social media outlets are already polluted with extremist materials; you can practically click on anything on Twitter/X and start getting right-wing extremist recommendations from the platform's algorithms. Republicans have directly gone on the attack against researchers who study the propagation of disinformation (New York Times, 2023-06-19).



Stone is likely referring to the Independent State Legislator doctrine (ISL). Now, this is the right time to don our tin foil hats, because we are going to get into some conspiracy theory territory. ISL is a radical theory that, based on the text of the Constitution, state legislators are not bound by the courts or the State constitutions to manage how elections are conducted. "If you give the legislature a blank check on the manner of appointing presidential electors, then a Republican majority could—in the most muscular version of ISL—simply disregard a Biden victory in the state’s popular vote and appoint Trump electors instead." (The Atlantic, 2022-07-29) This definitely is crazy at first glance, but don’t forget, MAGA already tried something like this before, by sending fake electors from contentious states, in an attempt to replace legitimate electors. They even sent a violent mob to lynch Mike Pence before he could certify the Election results (Snopes, 2021-01-29; see also ‘Everything we trained for’: How the far-right Oath Keepers militia planned for violence on Jan. 6, Politifact 2021-09-23). What they lacked was the political will of those State legislators, and a Supreme Court precedent. Regarding latter, the Supreme Court reaffirmed as recently as 2019 that ISL is bogus. However, 3 SCOTUS justices have hinted that were the issue to go before the Court again, they would side with ISL. That leaves the State Legislators, which merely need to be controlled by a Republican majority, and for them to be corrupted by MAGA. MAGA already controls the GOP nationwide, individual Republican candidates have been told to support Trump or get bent.

The way this would look, suppose the GOP retains a majority in the Michigan State Legislator, but Biden wins the election there fair and square. Republicans assert that there was widespread voter fraud and the results have to be tossed. There won't be evidence of widespread fraud, of course, they just need to assert the justification of what happens next. The election is tossed out in Michigan, the legislator sends Republican Electors instead. The Electors are kicked back federally. Michigan Republicans sue, and the case makes it all the way to the Supreme Court. The conservative majority in SCOTUS decree that ILS now applies, order the federal government to recognize the Republican Electors. Do this in enough battleground states, and even though Biden really won the Election*, the Presidency goes instead to Donald Trump (the demented geriatric, known rapist, and convicted felon). America ceases to be a democracy, we become a de facto dictatorship like Russia or Hungary.

*(For the purpose of this hypothetical situation)

Perhaps it won't go down that way. There are many roadblocks that may foil an Election steal plot, including We the People. However, Donald Trump (the demented geriatric, known rapist, and convicted felon) and his MAGA crony Roger Stone are attempting to undermine a free and fair Election, possibly to destroy Elections once for all. That should scare the living crap out of us.

Lets face the facts. Everyone knows, even all the Trump supporters here know, that Trump lost the election, and they know too that he even lost the popular vote by 8 million. Everybody knows, including all the Trump supporters here know, that Trump is a pathological liar, and too that his claim to have won the election is just one more instance of his pathology.
Everybody knows, even all the Trump supporters here know, that Trump called and pressured the Georgia Republican Secretary of State to commit election fraud by overturning the actual results and declaring Trump the winner.
Everybody knows, including all the Trump supporters here know, of Trump and his teams corrupt "fake electors" scheme to overthrow the election results in key states which, if successful ,would have given Trump the win. In association with that:
Everybody knows, including all the Trump supporters here know, that Trump pressured his VP to violate his oath on Jan 6th by rejecting the legitimate electoral college votes.
Everybody knows, including all the Trump supporters here know, that Trump organized and incited the attack, the insurrectionist attack on the Capital on Jan.6th. in an attempt to obstruct and cancel the confirmation of Biden, who everybody knows, including the Trump supporters here know, was the actual winner of the election.
Everybody knows, even the Trump supporters here know, that the President and Commander in Chief, was derelict in his duty on Jan 6th when for 3 hours he watched the attack on the U.S. Capital and did nothing, nada, zilch in its defense.
Everybody knows, even Trump supporters here know, that after the insurrection failed, Trump made a public statement acknowledging it was over and "thanked those who attacked the Capital, telling them how much he loved them and appreciated their efforts.
Everybody knows, even the Trump supporters here know, that at his rallys, Trump champions those convicted and imprisoned insurrectionists, calling them "heros, warriors, and hostages"
Everybody knows, even the Trump supporters here know, that Trump has promised to pardon all of those, "who for his own cause" were convicted of insurrection against the U.S.
And everybody knows, even all the Trump supporters here know, that Trump is a pathological liar, still lying about all of that.
And the point of it all being is, you guessed it, everybody knows, and everybody knows that they know, but what everybody doesn't seem to get, is that they, the Trumpster's, including all the Trumpster's here, are just never going to admit to any of it. They are too invested, they've been defending this cretin and all of his lies for nearly a decade now, and we now can see that not even treason, not even an attempted political coup, not even a failed attempt to overthrow American democracy is enough to get them to admit to what they know.

[NorrinRadd]

Lets face the facts. Everyone knows, even all the Trump supporters here know, ...

Pretty sure that most Trump voters here or anywhere really do not "know" or believe the vast majority of those assertions.

[JimL]

Pretty sure that most Trump voters here or anywhere really do not "know" or believe the vast majority of those assertions.

Well, then you must be pretty sure too that most Trump supporters, including all of his supporters here on this site are either totally ignorant or are total morons.

[CivilDiscourse]

Any specifics you'd like to talk about?

I do. Why would Stone claim to have a Judge available on call? Why would anyone associated with any campaign admit to that?


Meh, The Democratic Party is too "Big Mother" for my taste. (Basically, a little gentler than Orwell's "Big Brother")

However, I do note your attempt to paint me as partisan, so as to dismiss me more easily. I give you a solid D- for poor form and overall laziness.

Why? Being charitable: if you suspect shenanigans are going on, you need to be able to get an emergency stay in place as early as possible.

[Sparko]

Well, then you must be pretty sure too that most Trump supporters, including all of his supporters here on this site are either totally ignorant or are total morons.

That's your job: Tweb's village idiot. And you do a great job

[JimL]

That's your job: Tweb's village idiot. And you do a great job

Everybody knows, including yourself Sparko, that you Trumpster's are living in denial and supporting a traitor who attempted a political coup in order to overthrow an election and American democracy. You're all feigning ignorance, living in denial, and apparently would rather live in denial and continue to support one who you know to have committed treason against your country rather than to admit to the reality which you've seen with your own eyes.

[Sparko]

Everybody knows, including yourself Sparko, that you Trumpster's are living in denial and supporting a traitor who attempted a political coup in order to overthrow an election and American democracy. You're all feigning ignorance, living in denial, and apparently would rather live in denial and continue to support one who you know to have committed treason against your country rather than to admit to the reality which you've seen with your own eyes.

LOL. Keep it up. I am enjoying your delusional rants.

[JimL]

LOL. Keep it up. I am enjoying your delusional rants.

Ditto Sparko, your denial is either a delusion, the unconscious denial of what your own eyes have seen, or you're fully aware of the facts and just can't admit to it.

[Sparko]

Ditto Sparko, your denial is either a delusion, the unconscious denial of what your own eyes have seen, or you're fully aware of the facts and just can't admit to it.

You keep telling others what they "really believe" - how long have you been a mind reader? Seems like a hard task when you don't have one of your own.

[JimL]

You keep telling others what they "really believe" - how long have you been a mind reader? Seems like a hard task when you don't have one of your own.

Well I did leave open the options of cognitive dissonance, stupidity or just plain ignorance. But I know you're not ignorant of the reality, you've seen it, and I know you're not stupid, so that only leaves the psychological issue of cognitive dissonance, or you are well aware of the truth and just can't admit to it because you've been in denial of it for years.

[Sparko]

Well I did leave open the options of cognitive dissonance, stupidity or just plain ignorance.

Well I do have to admit you have a lot of self-experience with those. I guess that does make you a bit of an expert.

But I know you're not ignorant of the reality, you've seen it, and I know you're not stupid,

Whew. I feel so relieved.

so that only leaves the psychological issue of cognitive dissonance, or you are well aware of the truth and just can't admit to it because you've been in denial of it for years.

Well there you go accusing others of your own failings again. I have told you I don't even like Trump. His only redeeming quality is that he is NOT Biden. Yet you keep accusing me of being a "Trumpster" - my only conclusion is that you are the one with cognitive dissonance, since you keep accusing me of things I don't believe or do.

[JimL]

Well I do have to admit you have a lot of self-experience with those. I guess that does make you a bit of an expert.

Whew. I feel so relieved.

Well there you go accusing others of your own failings again. I have told you I don't even like Trump. His only redeeming quality is that he is NOT Biden. Yet you keep accusing me of being a "Trumpster" - my only conclusion is that you are the one with cognitive dissonance, since you keep accusing me of things I don't believe or do.

You're supporting a traitor who everybody knows, who you know, attempted a political coup, and incited an insurrection in order to remain in power against the will of the American people. So saying that you don't even like Trump is meaningless. You are a Trump supporter, supporting a traitor and insurrectionist aka a Trumpster.

[Sparko]

You're supporting a traitor who everybody knows, who you know, attempted a political coup, and incited an insurrection in order to remain in power against the will of the American people. So saying that you don't even like Trump is meaningless. You are a Trump supporter, supporting a traitor and insurrectionist aka a Trumpster.

How does repeating your falsehood make it true JimL? I tell you that you are fighting a strawman, and in response you attack it harder? It just makes you look more the fool.