I personally don't think people that lead war against the federal government should be celebrated.
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Abrams calls for removal of Confederate faces off Stone Mountain
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostOne of my cousins said that she has always been a democrat and her dad too, and this time they both voted for Trump because the democrats have gone nuts with all this nonsense and violence.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostStatues can represent lots of things Jimmy. Some of those statues were built as a memorial to those who died or for peace. You should really try reading dedication plaques on statues sometime. Likewise, many of my ancestors were Irish, Italian, and American Indians and we know how poorly these groups were treated. How should I feel about their treatment? Nothing because those events happened to them and not me. Same is true for the descendents of slaves. It was your ancestors who were locked into slavery, not you. So remember the past, make sure those events don't repeat, and stop trying to benefit from the suffering of your ancestors.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI'm not a black person you idiot."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostNever said you were and good job missing the point. I don't feel anything about what happened to my ancestors because it is irrelevant to my living situation today. I have a hard time getting emotionally invested in events that happened over 100 years before my birth. Can you explain why I should be upset about them, even when some of my ancestors were the victims of racism and even outright slaughter?I am Punkinhead.
"I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"
~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....
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Originally posted by ke7ejx View PostIrish?"The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThere's plenty of historical job ads and pictures in which Irish were told not to apply. Modern ideas of race are different than ones from the 19th and even early 20th century. Several groups were subjected to what could be considered racism. Irish, Italians, Polish, Jews, Chinese, or Japanese are just a few immigrants that experienced some pretty harsh racism. My point is being upset about things that happened generations before you were born is rather silly. Plus, few people would hold up to progressive views on piety. If we want to tear down statues to racist let's tear down ones to progressive heros too, since many of them were pretty racist.I am Punkinhead.
"I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"
~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....
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Originally posted by ke7ejx View PostSweetheart, I'm asking because I'm fifth-generation Irish-American. My anscestors were both enslaved by the British Empire and by the States when they showed up just as the Civil War was heating up. Please calm your hackles."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostJim, Jim, Jim.
They have never been rallying points UNTIL the left made a big deal about tearing them down. Neither the left nor the right paid any attention to them until then. And the KKK is not the alt-right nor the basket of deplorables, you racist commie.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostNot like anyone was worshiping them. They had long since passed from pagan religious icons to works of art much like relics from pharaonic Egypt aren't seriously regarded as pagan icons.
Muslims and Fundamentalists use the same logic: a statue is a graven image, and therefore wrong, regardless of the intentions of the people among whom it is found. The Lincoln Monument is as hateful to the Muslim God as a statue of a Saint in or near a Catholic Church is to the Fundamentalist God. The iconoclasm of 4th-century Christians, of 12th-century Cathars & Paulicians, of 16th-century Protestants, and of Muslims since their beginning, is essentially the same attitude - the evil is in the fact of the image's existence; not, or not only, in its use, whatever that may be (the Iconoclasts in the Byzantine Empire between 726 & 843 were selective in their iconoclasm - they were not against all images). So the image itself must go. Where there is a theology that assigns the making of the image to a time or place of spiritual darkness - as in the theologies of Reformation Protestantism, or of Islam - there is a further motive to destroy the images.
This last consideration would help to explain why modern Protestants accept the God of Luther & Calvin, and yet have no qualms about making statues that honour Luther and Calvin: it seems to be assumed that statuary made by own's group is legitimate. It seems impossible to deny that a large part of Protestantism has lost its iconoclastic fervour, and it would be very instructive to trace how and why this has come about. Engravings in books were never a problem, whether for depicting the sufferings of Protestant martyrs, the busts of Protestant teachers, or illustrations in commentaries - the sticking-point seems to be the use of images in the round, as found in Catholic churches. Protestants allowed imagery - Muslims allow only image-free representations, such as the (often very beautiful) calligraphic designs that incorporate the title of the Koran, or the name of its God.
Fundamentalist Protestants - those of them who are exercised about this issue - seem to have a variety of positions: the one universal seems to be a rejection of images in the round - but even that seems to be inconsistently applied, since they often quote Exodus 20.4 against Catholic use of images in the round, but seem to have no objection to public statues in the round. Since statues of Saints and of the Founding Fathers are equally "graven", are equally not taken for objects of worship, and have the same potential for usurping what is due to God alone, it is not clear why Fundamentalists spend a deal of energy rebuking the Catholic use of images in the round, but have no quarrel with Mt. Rushmore.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostThere's plenty of historical job ads and pictures in which Irish were told not to apply. Modern ideas of race are different than ones from the 19th and even early 20th century. Several groups were subjected to what could be considered racism. Irish, Italians, Polish, Jews, Chinese, or Japanese are just a few immigrants that experienced some pretty harsh racism. My point is being upset about things that happened generations before you were born is rather silly. Plus, few people would hold up to progressive views on piety. If we want to tear down statues to racist let's tear down ones to progressive heros too, since many of them were pretty racist.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostStatues can represent lots of things Jimmy. Some of those statues were built as a memorial to those who died or for peace. You should really try reading dedication plaques on statues sometime.
Likewise, many of my ancestors were Irish, Italian, and American Indians and we know how poorly these groups were treated. How should I feel about their treatment? Nothing because those events happened to them and not me. Same is true for the descendents of slaves. It was your ancestors who were locked into slavery, not you. So remember the past, make sure those events don't repeat, and stop trying to benefit from the suffering of your ancestors.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostA statue of R.E. Lee or Nathan Bedford Forest, first grand wizard of the KKK, are not memorials to those who died, they are memorials to racist men who revolted against their country in order to maintain the institution of slavery.False equivalency Lilpix, the Irish were not brought over here in chains and forced into slavery. Many of the slave owners were themselves Irish. Ever see "Gone with the Wind?"That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Who commisioned, designed or completed the monuments is irrelevant. Even the monument you cited was made some 60 years after the war. But as I said the great majority of the memorials were made in the Jim Crow era on into the 1960's in response to the civil rights movement.
You need to educate yourself Jimmy. http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-299434
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Originally posted by JimL View PostA statue of R.E. Lee or Nathan Bedford Forest, first grand wizard of the KKK, are not memorials to those who died, they are memorials to racist men who revolted against their country in order to maintain the institution of slavery.
False equivalency Lilpix, the Irish were not brought over here in chains and forced into slavery. Many of the slave owners were themselves Irish. Ever see "Gone with the Wind?"
BTW Gone With the Wind is Hollywood fiction Jimmy. Try reading or watching non Hollywood fiction. Some slaves had it good and others bad. The world isn't as black/white as you want it to be. Blacks were not the only slaves nor the only ones that had it bad.Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 08-26-2017, 06:05 PM."The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy
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