Biden Admin Privately Asks Hamas Not to Attack U.S. Forces

[Cow Poke]

They don't want all Jews dead.

[HA Mode ]You've interviewed them? Every single one of them?[/HA Mode ]

How is Hamas supposed to negotiate with an Israeli government that wants all the citizens of Gaza dead? They've actually said it. Their quotes about wanting to kill everyone were cited in South Africa's ICJ case alleging Israel's trying to do a genocide.

Ya know, if I was attacked like Hamas attacked Israel, I might have some ugly things to say in the heat of anger.

It's not in their charter. Their charter does say they want all Jews did. That's just a lie you've gullibly believed in your foolishness.

Laughing --- so their excursion into Israel was simply an invitation for them to have a picnic with Hamas.
Until 2017, it did, then the cowardly little terrorists started trying to weasel their way out of it....

The day after Khaled Mashal, Chairman of Hamas' Political Bureau, on 1 May 2017 had presented a new “political document” (often referred to as ‘new charter’), he was asked: "Will it replace Hamas’ old charter?" Mashal answered: This "new document has been in the making for four years (…) This document reflects our position for now (…) The old charter was a product of its era, 30 years ago. We live in a different world today".^[43] Other Hamas leaders since then have repeated Mashal's message: the old Charter should be viewed as "a historical document and part of an earlier stage in [Hamas's] evolution".^[3]

In reaction on that launching of that 2017 charter, Nathan Thrall, analyst for the International Crisis Group, on 3 May 2017 suggested that the 1988 charter ("with its talk of obliterating Israel") had since long been causing "quiet embarrassment among more reform-minded Hamas leaders", but that "ambivalence" within the Hamas leadership nevertheless had stopped Hamas, in their new 2017 charter, from fully repudiating that old 1988 charter.^[44]

Around 4 May 2017, with Khaled Mashal still in office as Chairman of Hamas' Political Bureau, and interviewed about the identification of Hamas' enemies as "Zionists" in the new 'charter' whereas in the 1988 charter they are also indicated as "the Jews", Mashal stated: "Yes", in the old charter indeed "the expression ['Jews'] was used", which he criticized as "not (…) accurate" enough, emphasizing that Hamas' struggle "from the very start" was against "the Israeli occupier … not because they are Jews, (…) not because of their religion, but because (…) they have occupied our land, and attacked our people, and forced them out of their homes".^[45]

Maybe you could realize that those otherwise intelligent people are also right about this, and that you're the one who's wrong?

Perhaps you should get back on your meds.

[Starlight]

And how would Hamas "dissolve Israel" without killing the people living there?

Political unification or dissolution into parts are probably the most common ways in history for a country to end. As I said earlier, my great-grandfather was born in Prussia. It's not a country any more. It was united into Germany, later conquered by the USSR, and subsequently split into a variety of countries. Today a variety of different countries cover the area that used to be the country of Prussia. Such changes in country names, boundaries, and identities, are sometimes violent and sometimes not.

The political dis-establishment of Israel need not be violent. The Israeli leadership could do it if they wished. They could say "we're going to disband the country of Israel, and create a wider state in the region called 'Israel-Palestine' that covers the territories of both areas, and in which Jews and Arabs are co-equal first class citizens, in a combined democratic republic." Given current population demographics in the region, it would give both Jews and Arabs an approximately equal number of citizens in the new state, meaning that a functional democratic government would have to involve elected representatives from both sides working together. Doing all that would pretty much instantly destroy Hamas, because it would be giving the average Arab citizen in the region everything they wanted and achieving nearly all of Hamas's goals so they wouldn't have a reason to exist anymore and there wouldn't be a reason for Arab citizens to support their existence.

The Israeli leadership would never do that, however, because they are absolutely determined to have a Jewish state. They're so determined on that they wrote it into the constitution fairly recently, and banned any political parties from existing in their 'democracy' that didn't agree with it (!). Keeping Israel being a Jewish state, places some fundamental limitations on how many Arabs they can let into Israel if they are allowed to vote. Israel is under huge internal pressure from powerful settler factions within Israel who believe it's their god-given duty to expand the borders of Israel, and claim more land for Jews. However, that causes constant problems with the Arabs who live on that land the Jewish settlers are wanting to expand into. Israel, as a nation has a fundamental problem: If it expands its borders as so many Jews want, it displaces Arabs, and if it displaces Arabs it either needs to take them inside its borders, in which case Israel becomes less Jewish, which is viewed as undesirable, or to try and force the Arabs outside its borders into ever-smaller areas as Israel takes more of their land, and that triggers Arab violence against Israel.

Did they attack the country itself on October 7, or the people living there?

A bit of both. They attacked the country and some of the people in it.

The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: 'Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,' except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews. (Hamas Charter, Article 7).

Yes they quote some of their scripture, to try to pretend their fight against Israel is divinely justified.

[Sparko]

Political unification or dissolution into parts are probably the most common ways in history for a country to end. As I said earlier, my great-grandfather was born in Prussia. It's not a country any more. It was united into Germany, later conquered by the USSR, and subsequently split into a variety of countries. Today a variety of different countries cover the area that used to be the country of Prussia. Such changes in country names, boundaries, and identities, are sometimes violent and sometimes not.

The political dis-establishment of Israel need not be violent. The Israeli leadership could do it if they wished. They could say "we're going to disband the country of Israel, and create a wider state in the region called 'Israel-Palestine' that covers the territories of both areas, and in which Jews and Arabs are co-equal first class citizens, in a combined democratic republic." Given current population demographics in the region, it would give both Jews and Arabs an approximately equal number of citizens in the new state, meaning that a functional democratic government would have to involve elected representatives from both sides working together. Doing all that would pretty much instantly destroy Hamas, because it would be giving the average Arab citizen in the region everything they wanted and achieving nearly all of Hamas's goals so they wouldn't have a reason to exist anymore and there wouldn't be a reason for Arab citizens to support their existence.

The Israeli leadership would never do that, however, because they are absolutely determined to have a Jewish state. They're so determined on that they wrote it into the constitution fairly recently, and banned any political parties from existing in their 'democracy' that didn't agree with it (!). Keeping Israel being a Jewish state, places some fundamental limitations on how many Arabs they can let into Israel if they are allowed to vote. Israel is under huge internal pressure from powerful settler factions within Israel who believe it's their god-given duty to expand the borders of Israel, and claim more land for Jews. However, that causes constant problems with the Arabs who live on that land the Jewish settlers are wanting to expand into. Israel, as a nation has a fundamental problem: If it expands its borders as so many Jews want, it displaces Arabs, and if it displaces Arabs it either needs to take them inside its borders, in which case Israel becomes less Jewish, which is viewed as undesirable, or to try and force the Arabs outside its borders into ever-smaller areas as Israel takes more of their land, and that triggers Arab violence against Israel.

A bit of both. They attacked the country and some of the people in it.

Yes they quote some of their scripture, to try to pretend their fight against Israel is divinely justified.

What I meant was "Do you think the Israeli people would just stand by and let their country be dissolved?" They would fight to the last man, woman and child. Which means that Hamas would have to commit genocide to get their way. And I don't think they are that concerned about it, in fact they would prefer it. They are not civil, magnanimous leaders. They can't even govern the small strip of land they have now. If Hamas were to conquer Israel, they would kill, imprison and torture any remaining Israelis. They would be even worse despots than they are now. You know it and I know it.

[Starlight]

What I meant was "Do you think the Israeli people would just stand by and let their country be dissolved?" They would fight to the last man, woman and child. Which means that Hamas would have to commit genocide to get their way.

Maybe... I place very little faith in your theorizing about people's reactions.

Hamas has not said they want to kill every last Israeli. They want to dis-establish the country of Israel.

It's pretty clear they don't have the power to do that. So speculation on what they would have to actually do in practice to achieve it is reasonably pointless because they can't do it.

And I don't think they are that concerned about it, in fact they would prefer it. They are not civil, magnanimous leaders.

The enthusiasm with which you ascribe every evil desire your fervent imagination can concoct upon Hamas, is quite over the top. Please stop with your fantasizing about how evil you can imagine Hamas being. It's both disturbing about what it says about your own mind, and probably unhealthy for you. Try to stay based in facts and reality, and don't just fantasize about the evil of others for the sake of it.

They can't even govern the small strip of land they have now.

Factually speaking, they did appear to be able to govern it.

If Hamas were to conquer Israel, they would kill, imprison and torture any remaining Israelis. They would be even worse despots than they are now. You know it and I know it.

I fundamentally disagree with you on this. I think that if Hamas got control of Israel it would have a massively politically moderating affect on them: They would have had achieved their military goals and could therefore drop them. I think there would be massive pressure within Palestine, within the Arab world, and from countries internationally, for them to be able to show they were treating their Jewish citizens well, and prove the superiority of their own rule over that of the Israeli rule by proving they were treating Jewish citizens better than the Israeli government had treated the Arab citizens.

It's a mistake I've seen consistently made worldwide throughout history by oppressors: They think that if they ever let up on the oppression that those they have oppressed will rise up and kill them. But what they don't understand, is that the entire time during the oppression, those they are oppressing have been telling each other that their oppressed state is wrong and they deeply internalise the moral idea that "oppression is wrong". Then when the oppressors are eventually forced to end the oppression, the oppressors are always shocked when the previously-oppressed don't take the opportunity to strike back and instead extremely vigorously proclaim how happy they are with the new state of affairs and reiterate their firm belief that oppression is wrong and that everyone is equal.

I see Israelis in the present day consistently making the exact same psychological mistake. They've been indoctrinated to believe that the Arabs would Totally Kill Them All if they could. And that's just wrong.

[Sparko]

Maybe... I place very little faith in your theorizing about people's reactions.

Hamas has not said they want to kill every last Israeli. They want to dis-establish the country of Israel.

It's pretty clear they don't have the power to do that. So speculation on what they would have to actually do in practice to achieve it is reasonably pointless because they can't do it.

That doesn't stop them from attacking Israel and being terrorists though.

The enthusiasm with which you ascribe every evil desire your fervent imagination can concoct upon Hamas, is quite over the top. Please stop with your fantasizing about how evil you can imagine Hamas being. It's both disturbing about what it says about your own mind, and probably unhealthy for you. Try to stay based in facts and reality, and don't just fantasize about the evil of others for the sake of it.

I don't have to imagine anything. I just have to look at Hamas' history and read their own words and see who they align themselves with (Hezbollah, Iran, etc), and while their own people are starving, the actual Hamas "leaders" are sitting in rich comfort in Qutar.

Factually speaking, they did appear to be able to govern it.

No, they control it. There is no actual governing being done. Run more like the mob boss would run a city.

I fundamentally disagree with you on this. I think that if Hamas got control of Israel it would have a massively politically moderating affect on them: They would have had achieved their military goals and could therefore drop them. I think there would be massive pressure within Palestine, within the Arab world, and from countries internationally, for them to be able to show they were treating their Jewish citizens well, and prove the superiority of their own rule over that of the Israeli rule by proving they were treating Jewish citizens better than the Israeli government had treated the Arab citizens.

Talk about fantasizing and imagination.

It's a mistake I've seen consistently made worldwide throughout history by oppressors: They think that if they ever let up on the oppression that those they have oppressed will rise up and kill them. But what they don't understand, is that the entire time during the oppression, those they are oppressing have been telling each other that their oppressed state is wrong and they deeply internalise the moral idea that "oppression is wrong". Then when the oppressors are eventually forced to end the oppression, the oppressors are always shocked when the previously-oppressed don't take the opportunity to strike back and instead extremely vigorously proclaim how happy they are with the new state of affairs and reiterate their firm belief that oppression is wrong and that everyone is equal.

I see Israelis in the present day consistently making the exact same psychological mistake. They've been indoctrinated to believe that the Arabs would Totally Kill Them All if they could. And that's just wrong.

They are only going by past history and declarations, Star. You are engaging in wishful thinking. Hamas are not the good guys. They are fanatical muslim terrorists. They would be worse than the Taliban if they actually got control of Israel.

For someone who is so far left and socialist, I find it strange that you (and the other liberals here on tweb) are supporting a group of religious fascists that are further right than anyone in the USA.

[rogue06]

They don't want all Jews dead.

How is Hamas supposed to negotiate with an Israeli government that wants all the citizens of Gaza dead? They've actually said it. Their quotes about wanting to kill everyone were cited in South Africa's ICJ case alleging Israel's trying to do a genocide.

Oh the unintended delicious



Iron E.jpg

Over the years HAMAS has also repeatedly declared their intention to exterminate the Jews, and unlike the Israelis, not in the heat of the aftermath of an attack of the scale of October 7.

For example, as I noted above, immediately after the October 7 attack, HAMAS-controlled Palestinian TV ran videos which featured the words "Death to Israel" in Hebrew along with clips from funerals of their victims all while playing a song with such delightful lyrics as

Write 'death, death, death to Israel' with flowing blood,

And with the bleeding body cause death, death, death to Israel"

Death to Israel and killing Jews are inseparably linked.

[Starlight]

Oh the unintended delicious

Iron E.jpg

Yes, the irony is that you muppets keep repeating the false claim that Hamas have said they want to kill all the Jews, when in fact major figures in the Israeli government have said they want to kill all the Gazans and their statements are currently comprising part of the genocide cases against them in international courts.

In your ignorance and foolishness you're ascribing genocidal intentions to the wrong side.

[Starlight]

That doesn't stop them from attacking Israel and being terrorists though.

That's about the first thing you've said that I agree with.

Just as the "Indian Braves" raided the pioneers in the early US, doing terrorism in a fruitless attempt to get a bit of revenge, so too Hamas can do the same with Israel.

while their own people are starving, the actual Hamas "leaders" are sitting in rich comfort in Qutar.

There seems to be some Hamas leadership in Qatar and some in Gaza. It is reasonably common for the leadership of an oppressed group to be located outside the country. E.g. the Dalai Lama.

There is no actual governing being done. Run more like the mob boss would run a city.

You're just plain making this up out of your imagination. Please stop with the total fantasizing.

Hamas are not the good guys.

In this situation they are. Israel has wronged the Palestinians vastly, vastly more, than the Palestinians have ever wronged Israel. The Palestinians have a totally justified grievance, and are totally justified in fighting back against their oppressors.

They would be worse than the Taliban if they actually got control of Israel.

Again with the making things up.

For someone who is so far left and socialist, I find it strange that you (and the other liberals here on tweb) are supporting a group of religious fascists that are further right than anyone in the USA.

That's because you fundamentally don't understand the conflict. See my other thread. It isn't about "which group do I think are nicer people or who more align with me politically". It's about massive wrongs done to a people group in the course of their land being stolen from them by immigrant settlers, and how that justifies them in fighting back. You fundamentally don't seem to understand that.

[Cow Poke]

Yes, the irony is that you muppets keep repeating the false claim that Hamas have said they want to kill all the Jews....

I think you're misrepresenting what we said, and ignoring what the Hamas charter actually said.

[Starlight]

emphasizing that Hamas' struggle "from the very start" was against "the Israeli occupier … not because they are Jews, (…) not because of their religion, but because (…) they have occupied our land, and attacked our people, and forced them out of their homes".

I encourage you to reread your own quote here several times, and internalize it.

That quote there encapsulates what the conflict is about.

[Cow Poke]

I encourage you to reread your own quote here several times, and internalize it.

That quote there encapsulates what the conflict is about.

That's not what you claimed.....
Here is what you claimed....

Yes, the irony is that you muppets keep repeating the false claim that Hamas have said they want to kill all the Jews,

Not asking for any dishonest "encapsulation" from you, Star - I asked for an actual quote backing up your claim.

[rogue06]

Yes, the irony is that you muppets keep repeating the false claim that Hamas have said they want to kill all the Jews, when in fact major figures in the Israeli government have said they want to kill all the Gazans and their statements are currently comprising part of the genocide cases against them in international courts.

In your ignorance and foolishness you're ascribing genocidal intentions to the wrong side.

Nobody says they want to kill all of the Jews. They themselves have repeatedly made it clear it's just the Jews living in Israel.

And I don't believe that your insistent efforts at denying what HAMAS has constantly made clear has anything to do with ignorance.

Last year, a few months before the October 7th attack, Hamas official Sheikh Dr. Hamad Al-Regeb prayed for Allah to bring "annihilation" upon the Jews, whom he described as being filthy animals ("[Allah] transformed them into filthy, ugly animals like apes and pigs because of the injustice and evil they had brought about"), as well as to "enable" the Muslims to "get to" the Jews’ necks.

Furthermore, he made it clear that they can only defeat the Jews through bloodshed and terror -- and not by praying. Al-Regeb added that all Muslims and Arabs must start preparing for the day when they will heed a call to arms while praising martyrdom.

And let's not forget the HAMAS official who, not long after the October 7th attack declared that "Israel is a country that has no place on our land," and vowed to repeat the October 7 type attacks "time and time again until Israel is annihilated."

Peace is never an option for Hamas, only violence: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad." (Hamas Charter, Article 13).

[Starlight]

Peace is never an option for Hamas, only violence

Over the years...

Hamas was democratically elected, Israel tried a coup to oust them.

Hamas has tried diplomatic negotiations with Israel, Israel rebuffed them.

Hamas has tried peaceful protest, Israel shot the peaceful protesters.

[Diogenes]

Over the years...

Hamas was democratically elected, Israel tried a coup to oust them.

Hamas has tried diplomatic negotiations with Israel, Israel rebuffed them.

Hamas has tried peaceful protest, Israel shot the peaceful protesters.

We have access to Hamas' charter, I can't fathom why you're trying to run defense for them. They have never wanted peace.

[Cow Poke]

Over the years...

Hamas was democratically elected, Israel tried a coup to oust them.

Hamas has tried diplomatic negotiations with Israel, Israel rebuffed them.

Hamas has tried peaceful protest, Israel shot the peaceful protesters.

Congratulations, my friend - your assimilation is complete.