DJT and Trust

[Diogenes]

Not to get All True Scotsman on you, but you ain't a real INTJ if you're willing to put out "the deliberate injection of sources of possible fraud into the electoral process" and let that sit as a point of conclusion instead of interrogating whether there is, in fact, any significant amount of electoral fraud in recent elections.

You're also not gonna INTJ-your-way out of a dialogue by shotgunning a handful of talking points. That's something but it isn't born of being INTJ.

-Sam

The ineffectiveness of carpe's rhetoric is certainly something borne out of being an INTJ. Let me guess, you're going to claim to be an INTJ? I guess that at least makes three here.

One Bad Pig , cue the Spiderman pointing meme

[Mountain Man]

The ineffectiveness of carpe's rhetoric is certainly something borne out of being an INTJ. Let me guess, you're going to claim to be an INTJ? I guess that at least makes three here.

One Bad Pig , cue the Spiderman pointing meme

This all reminds me of a hippy dippy reporter I used to work worth, and she made some esoteric comment about how she was fire, and I was water, and that's why we didn't get along. I said, "That's not it at all. I just don't like you."

[carpedm9587]

Couldn't make it past this. It isn't a "meme." If you can't at least be honest about that I really can't bother with the rest.

It's a meme, Rogue. NO evidence has substantiated any of the accusations. The right-wing pundits and blogosphere and even Congress are rife with innuendo, accusation, and supposition - just no actual evidence. The impeachment inquiry was a sad joke.

It is truly sad that so many good people (both left and right) have been torn down in the name of political expedience and MAGA/Trumpism.

[carpedm9587]

IOW, it's Trump's fault for pointing out that the emperors are wearing no clothes. Got it.

No, not even close to what I was saying. And I'm surprised at this response, OBP. I remembered you being a bit more accurate when reflecting back a position.

Look, Trump is a narcissistic bombast. I get that. I don't much like him. On the other hand, if you can't see that the deliberate injection of sources of possible fraud into the electoral process, a news media which is little more than the propaganda arm of one political party and abuse of the justice system for political ends aren't problematic in and of themselves, then there's little point in dialogue with you.

To be clear, all of these would be problematic and causes for concern, if you could show them to have happened! Your first is about "possibilities" that have never been shown to be true. Indeed, every investigation, including those initiated by Republicans and executed by their select third parties, came up empty. Sixty court trials and a single win dealing with a handful of votes in one inconsequential district. The second is a problem on BOTH sides, with media outlets serving as administration propaganda outlets on both the left and right. So too has abuse of the judicial system - again - by both sides. The one distinction I would draw here is that there is little evidence of this abuse at the federal level under Biden (if you think otherwise, then what is the evidence?) while there was amble under Trump. Below the federal level, I find a lot of examples of abuse (Bragg being a foremost example.

I'm an INTJ. Alarmist rhetoric will not be persuasive. Ramping up the rhetoric merely tells me you've got nothing substantive, and are attempting to carry your point by yelling louder. I get emails from both main political parties begging for donations. Neither side gets more than an eyeroll.

Like you, I do not give to political parties. I consider them the bane of our country, and I believe I am in good company since most of the FFs thought so as well. As for "alarmist rhetoric," I think I would say that, unsubstantiated alarmist rhetoric is pointless; alarmist rhetoric when the situation is alarming is warranted. I believe my OP outlined why I find the situation alarming. I take it that did not come across?

[One Bad Pig]

Not to get All True Scotsman on you, but you ain't a real INTJ if you're willing to put out "the deliberate injection of sources of possible fraud into the electoral process" and let that sit as a point of conclusion instead of interrogating whether there is, in fact, any significant amount of electoral fraud in recent elections.

You're also not gonna INTJ-your-way out of a dialogue by shotgunning a handful of talking points. That's something but it isn't born of being INTJ.

-Sam

Duly noted.

[carpedm9587]

Carpe.

Realize that in ALL of those things, he is not alone. Trump is the latest in a long line of escalating versions of all of those.

Agreed, however Trump's unique contribution is to leverage all that went before, and harness it for personal gain, creating a tide of "trump-alikes" riding on his success.

Democrats/liberals have cried fowl in every lost presidential election since GW Bush. They write article after article about how the electoral system is broken. How the Republicans are purging voters, how they are rigging/gaming the system.

CD, the difference here is degree and evidence. It was the Republicans, not the Democrats who implemented "Operation Red Map." Democrats gerrymander too, and I consider it repulsive by either party. But Republicans took it to a whole new level. Voter purging HAS been going on. We have concrete examples of it in district after district, and data to show it happens more in Democrat districts than Republican districts, and more to Democr4atic voters than Republican ones. In situation after situation, Republican politicians, when they cannot win in the theater of ideas, simply try to change the game. When Roe vs. Wade was overturned, state after state introduced resolutions for the population to vote on to amend their constitution to protect abortion, and state after state Republican legislature responded by trying to change the rules to make it harder to change the state constitution. The examples go on and on.

The Democrats are not innocent either, but the degree is VERY different and the evidence for widespread attempts to, let's say "get creative" is hard against the Republicans.

Democrats/liberals have worked hard at corrupting the media. Before the Trump Years, they would claim media wasn't biased. During the Trump years, they pivoted to "objective means covering Trump 'truthfully' and not 'both sidesing him' . I think I've lately seen that Yellow Journalism is the norm, and its OK to have biased media. So, I'm not sure Trump is actually destroying trust, as other people see what's going on. Plus, let's not forget Obama's war on Fox News.

Fox. Breitbart. OAN. And the list goes on. Both sides have their "captive media." CNN is Fox's counterpart. Mother Jones is Breitbart's counterpart. But there are "close to center" outlets, including WSJ, MSN, NPR, Forbes, AP, etc. Unfortunately, ALL media are being undermined except the ones that say what any given person wants to hear. When ALL media outlets cannot be trusted, the only source of news becomes the government (or party leader). That has been Trump's go-to strategy. He TOLD us as much, noting that he just labels any story he doesn't like "fake news" and he knows his followers will take it up. There is nothing there about truth - only about rallying the cult.

Democrats have been working on undermining trust in the judicial system themselves. Even before the Garland situation, Democrats loved to complain when "5 unelected judges" ruled against them. Since Garland it's only gotten worse. They tried to push through court packing, they rail against "corrupt" justices letting Trump get away with stuff, etc.

Come on, CD. Yes, any party is going to complain when the opposing party is in power and they find themselves on trial. That's a given. And the only one who put forward a "pack the court" bill was Schiff with the Judiciary Act of 2023. He did it in full knowledge it would go nowhere, because Republicans control the house. It was a political stunt, and nothing more. It didn't have a prayer. Biden has been clear he does not support the idea. And judges HAVE become politicized, with the endorsement of their base. Look at the answers that people like Seer give when asked why they are voting for Trump: "getting conservative justices on the bench." SO much for wanting a judiciary that is apolitical. Apparently, that is only wanted when they are "political" for the other side.

Democrats/liberals have embraced gaslighting as well. Their court-packing scheme was branded as "Restoring balance". They passed the "Inflation Reduction Act" that had nothing to do with inflation. Politicians Lying has been a joke since WELL before Trump was in office.

And you think "creative naming" is something new? Really? There is little doubt, CD, that lying has been part of the political landscape since the dawn of politics. But in my lifetime there has NEVER been a candidate like Trump. When most politicians have been caught lying, they stop (and sometimes even own it). When they don't, they are usually rewarded for it by loss of stature and even loss of office (though the latter most often happens in the next election cycle. Not Mr. Trump. He lies with impunity, his base takes up the lie, and it becomes "the truth." He does it over and over and over again with lie after lie after lie. Even when there is video/audio evidence of the lie, he maintains it, doubles down, and soon the evidence makes no difference.

As for destroying trust in each other. Again, this didn't start with Trump. I'll point you back to the South Park Obama/McCain election results episode.

I'm pretty sure I was clear that Mr. Trump did not start any of this. With him it is a matter of degree. And with him it is a matter of destroying confidence/trust in core institutions.

Essentially, this has been an ongoing issue that keeps escalating. Trump is more a symptom of the disease and Not the disease itself. If you want to blame Trump for everything that's wrong, you are suffering from selective Amnesia, and ironically, prone to the same sort of nostalgia bait "Make America Great Again" slogan appealed to.
(I brought up a democratic list to point out that this is not one-sided, and Trump isn't alone in the things you claim he is causing.

At no point did I say I blame Mr. Trump for everything that is wrong - but he is likewise not just a "symptom." Mr. Trump is an opportunist. He values three things: money, power, and accolades. A close fourth is "vengeance" towards anyone who stands in his way of one of those three. He recognized the winds of the times, and has harnessed them in a way (and to a degree) that no one has done in recent memory. He has a created an army of cult followers that NO other leader at the national level has created in living memory. They are armed. They are dangerous. We see it in what has happened to election workers, to court personnel (even at the clerk levels), to opposing politicians, to Republicans who have spoken out against him, and to the families of all of those. The death threats are off the charts, and the incidences of active violence climbing. While the far left is not innocent, the incident-levels/counts are not even close.

And does Mr. Trump work to dial down the rhetoric and decry violence? Mr. Trump is an expert at saying the "right thing" and then immediately following it with a dog whistle. He is a master at "plausible deniability." He always manages to leave himself wiggle room, even as he uses phrases, expressions, and even entire sentences lifted right out of Mein Kampf and the Nazi playbook, and then looks around innocently and says, "what, me? I didn't mean that..." Once or twice, it's a slip. Repeatedly in speech after speech, and its intentional.