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  • DJT and Trust

    I have written on this topic before, but I want to revisit it. It has to do with trust. While different societies are founded on different principles, there is one thing that is a universal, foundational requirement for any society (or group of any kind) to function: trust.

    We act out of a sense of trust thousands of times each day. The food we eat has passed through dozens (perhaps hundreds) of hands, any one of which could have poisoned it. We trust they have not and we eat it without much thought. We drive down the road almost head-on at mortal speeds, trusting that the person coming towards us will stay on their side of the thin yellow line. We place our money in banks trusting that it will be there when we go to retrieve it. We walk down the street trusting that our fellow citizens will not do us harm. We go to our doctors, trusting that they will make choices to help us get better. We take pills we had nothing to do with manufacturing, trusting they are what they are described to be.

    We trust so much, we are largely ignorant of how much we are engaging in that exercise. That is why we react so strongly when our basic trust is violated. When the bottle of tylenol is laced with arsenic. When the terrorist puts a bomb next to a raceway. When the financier snags us in a ponzi scheme. When the spouse cheats or the nurse decides to kill the patient.

    This is the greatest danger posed by a man like Donald Trump. Mr Trump has a history of seeing trust and honor systems as systems to be exploited for personal gain. He has done so throughout his professional career. His primary motivating force is “what’s in it for me.” Power, money, and accolades are his measure of success, and he will drive through any obstacle to get to them. If you deny him any of these, revenge is his go-to response, and he will tear down any obstacle to get it. The vital role of trust is lost on him; trust is simply another system to exploit.

    So he has torn apart trust in our electoral system, because it is not giving him the “wins” he so craves. It doesn’t matter to him that democracy depends on the electorate trusting that elections in America are free and fair. It doesn’t matter to him that every investigation has shown that they actually ARE free and fair. They are not producing what he wants, so tear them down. Constantly repeat the mantra that “the election was stolen,” despite all the evidence to the contrary. Some people will believe it.

    He has torn apart trust in our media outlets (though he is certainly not alone in that process). It doesn’t matter to him that an informed electorate is a critical part of any democracy, and that a free press is the fourth estate of any democracy. It is the watchdog that reports on things we, the electorate, cannot hope to dig out. Without it, the only news we get is what the leaders WANT us to get. But that’s the point isn’t it. Trump doesn’t care about truth. He explicitly told us that, if he hears a story he doesn’t like, he just labels it “fake news.” The qualifying characteristic is “Trump does not like the story,” not “it isn’t true.”

    He is now busy tearing down trust in our judicial system, one of the three major branches of our system of government. Our judicial system is rooted in the concept of fairness, speedy trial, jury of peers, and other elements that are the envy of many parts of the world. However, Trump is facing multiple indictments, so the entire system is “corrupt” and “unfair” and everyone involved in a case against him is “out to get him.” If he wins the cases, he wins. If he loses, the game is rigged. This is his go-to mantra for everything.

    He has undermined the very role of truth in our society. Both he and his children have said, verbally and in various writings, that deception is a valid strategy for getting what you want. He understands that a lie repeated often enough becomes truth for some segment of the electorate, and he uses this tactic relentlessly.

    Most importantly, he has essentially destroyed trust in one another. We are no longer a country of Americans with differing views striving to find a middle ground. We are now enemies to be vanquished, with a country that needs to be “taken back.” Compromise and collaboration are dirty words and attempting to engage in either means you are “working with the enemy.”

    If there is one overriding characteristic of Mr. Trump that convinces me he does not deserve the Oval Office (and never did), this is it. Our country depends on trust and honor systems. Giving the Oval Office to a man who sees such systems as things to be exploited is not only folly, it is dangerous. Doing so a second time, when there is no question of a second term and Mr. Trump has been clear that he will have no “naysayers” (defined as people who do not agree with him) in his administration is doubly dangerous.

    Please give serious thought before pulling that lever for Mr. Trump in November. That decision, if you make it, is very likely to have grave consequences for this country.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

  • #2
    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I have written on this topic before, but I want to revisit it. It has to do with trust. While different societies are founded on different principles, there is one thing that is a universal, foundational requirement for any society (or group of any kind) to function: trust.

    We act out of a sense of trust thousands of times each day. The food we eat has passed through dozens (perhaps hundreds) of hands, any one of which could have poisoned it. We trust they have not and we eat it without much thought. We drive down the road almost head-on at mortal speeds, trusting that the person coming towards us will stay on their side of the thin yellow line. We place our money in banks trusting that it will be there when we go to retrieve it. We walk down the street trusting that our fellow citizens will not do us harm. We go to our doctors, trusting that they will make choices to help us get better. We take pills we had nothing to do with manufacturing, trusting they are what they are described to be.

    We trust so much, we are largely ignorant of how much we are engaging in that exercise. That is why we react so strongly when our basic trust is violated. When the bottle of tylenol is laced with arsenic. When the terrorist puts a bomb next to a raceway. When the financier snags us in a ponzi scheme. When the spouse cheats or the nurse decides to kill the patient.

    This is the greatest danger posed by a man like Donald Trump. Mr Trump has a history of seeing trust and honor systems as systems to be exploited for personal gain. He has done so throughout his professional career. His primary motivating force is “what’s in it for me.” Power, money, and accolades are his measure of success, and he will drive through any obstacle to get to them. If you deny him any of these, revenge is his go-to response, and he will tear down any obstacle to get it. The vital role of trust is lost on him; trust is simply another system to exploit.

    So he has torn apart trust in our electoral system, because it is not giving him the “wins” he so craves. It doesn’t matter to him that democracy depends on the electorate trusting that elections in America are free and fair. It doesn’t matter to him that every investigation has shown that they actually ARE free and fair. They are not producing what he wants, so tear them down. Constantly repeat the mantra that “the election was stolen,” despite all the evidence to the contrary. Some people will believe it.

    He has torn apart trust in our media outlets (though he is certainly not alone in that process). It doesn’t matter to him that an informed electorate is a critical part of any democracy, and that a free press is the fourth estate of any democracy. It is the watchdog that reports on things we, the electorate, cannot hope to dig out. Without it, the only news we get is what the leaders WANT us to get. But that’s the point isn’t it. Trump doesn’t care about truth. He explicitly told us that, if he hears a story he doesn’t like, he just labels it “fake news.” The qualifying characteristic is “Trump does not like the story,” not “it isn’t true.”

    He is now busy tearing down trust in our judicial system, one of the three major branches of our system of government. Our judicial system is rooted in the concept of fairness, speedy trial, jury of peers, and other elements that are the envy of many parts of the world. However, Trump is facing multiple indictments, so the entire system is “corrupt” and “unfair” and everyone involved in a case against him is “out to get him.” If he wins the cases, he wins. If he loses, the game is rigged. This is his go-to mantra for everything.

    He has undermined the very role of truth in our society. Both he and his children have said, verbally and in various writings, that deception is a valid strategy for getting what you want. He understands that a lie repeated often enough becomes truth for some segment of the electorate, and he uses this tactic relentlessly.

    Most importantly, he has essentially destroyed trust in one another. We are no longer a country of Americans with differing views striving to find a middle ground. We are now enemies to be vanquished, with a country that needs to be “taken back.” Compromise and collaboration are dirty words and attempting to engage in either means you are “working with the enemy.”

    If there is one overriding characteristic of Mr. Trump that convinces me he does not deserve the Oval Office (and never did), this is it. Our country depends on trust and honor systems. Giving the Oval Office to a man who sees such systems as things to be exploited is not only folly, it is dangerous. Doing so a second time, when there is no question of a second term and Mr. Trump has been clear that he will have no “naysayers” (defined as people who do not agree with him) in his administration is doubly dangerous.

    Please give serious thought before pulling that lever for Mr. Trump in November. That decision, if you make it, is very likely to have grave consequences for this country.
    If he wasn't running against a thoroughly corrupt wedded to completely incompetent opponent you'd have a better point.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      If he wasn't running against a thoroughly corrupt wedded to completely incompetent opponent you'd have a better point.
      While I realize the "Biden is corrupt" meme has enormous traction with so many on the right, there is simply no evidence showing that to be true. I have followed Biden's career since I was a Delaware resident in the 1980s. He has had a distinguished career spotted by a plagiarism episode (seems almost quaint now) and his tendency to run off at the mouth and say off-the-cuff things. Other than that, there has never been any hint of scandal. He has been a family man so dedicated to his kids that he rode the train home every single day to be with them. He has a long history of working "across the aisle" to achieve results.

      I find it very sad that the politics of today require people to tear down good people in the pursuit of a political end. It has been done to SO many good men and women in the past, and the trend is simply accelerating. People like Trump, Menendez, Gaetz, and others who have TRULY shown themselves to be of dubious character are celebrated while people like Biden, Obama, McCain, Mueller, Kelly, Romney, and Cheney are vilified and dragged through the mud with made-up stories and hatred. The former have largely served themselves. The latter have served their country with distinction, and deserve better.

      As a country, we have become a truly sad example for the world.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

        While I realize the "Biden is corrupt" meme has enormous traction...
        Couldn't make it past this. It isn't a "meme." If you can't at least be honest about that I really can't bother with the rest.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Couldn't make it past this. It isn't a "meme." If you can't at least be honest about that I really can't bother with the rest.
          I worry about the mental health of these leftists if Trump wins...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            IOW, it's Trump's fault for pointing out that the emperors are wearing no clothes. Got it.

            Look, Trump is a narcissistic bombast. I get that. I don't much like him. On the other hand, if you can't see that the deliberate injection of sources of possible fraud into the electoral process, a news media which is little more than the propaganda arm of one political party and abuse of the justice system for political ends aren't problematic in and of themselves, then there's little point in dialogue with you.

            I'm an INTJ. Alarmist rhetoric will not be persuasive. Ramping up the rhetoric merely tells me you've got nothing substantive, and are attempting to carry your point by yelling louder. I get emails from both main political parties begging for donations. Neither side gets more than an eyeroll.
            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #7
              Another irrational tirade from carpe that can be distilled down to "But- but Trump! "

              And he wonders why even his personal friends don't want to discuss politics with him.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                Another irrational tirade from carpe that can be distilled down to "But- but Trump! "

                And he wonders why even his personal friends don't want to discuss politics with him.
                What Carp and others fail to understand, it is about policy not personality. Trumps lines up mostly with what I find important, Biden almost not at all. And that is the bottom line...
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  I have written on this topic before, but I want to revisit it. It has to do with trust. While different societies are founded on different principles, there is one thing that is a universal, foundational requirement for any society (or group of any kind) to function: trust.

                  We act out of a sense of trust thousands of times each day. The food we eat has passed through dozens (perhaps hundreds) of hands, any one of which could have poisoned it. We trust they have not and we eat it without much thought. We drive down the road almost head-on at mortal speeds, trusting that the person coming towards us will stay on their side of the thin yellow line. We place our money in banks trusting that it will be there when we go to retrieve it. We walk down the street trusting that our fellow citizens will not do us harm. We go to our doctors, trusting that they will make choices to help us get better. We take pills we had nothing to do with manufacturing, trusting they are what they are described to be.

                  We trust so much, we are largely ignorant of how much we are engaging in that exercise. That is why we react so strongly when our basic trust is violated. When the bottle of tylenol is laced with arsenic. When the terrorist puts a bomb next to a raceway. When the financier snags us in a ponzi scheme. When the spouse cheats or the nurse decides to kill the patient.

                  This is the greatest danger posed by a man like Donald Trump. Mr Trump has a history of seeing trust and honor systems as systems to be exploited for personal gain. He has done so throughout his professional career. His primary motivating force is “what’s in it for me.” Power, money, and accolades are his measure of success, and he will drive through any obstacle to get to them. If you deny him any of these, revenge is his go-to response, and he will tear down any obstacle to get it. The vital role of trust is lost on him; trust is simply another system to exploit.

                  So he has torn apart trust in our electoral system, because it is not giving him the “wins” he so craves. It doesn’t matter to him that democracy depends on the electorate trusting that elections in America are free and fair. It doesn’t matter to him that every investigation has shown that they actually ARE free and fair. They are not producing what he wants, so tear them down. Constantly repeat the mantra that “the election was stolen,” despite all the evidence to the contrary. Some people will believe it.

                  He has torn apart trust in our media outlets (though he is certainly not alone in that process). It doesn’t matter to him that an informed electorate is a critical part of any democracy, and that a free press is the fourth estate of any democracy. It is the watchdog that reports on things we, the electorate, cannot hope to dig out. Without it, the only news we get is what the leaders WANT us to get. But that’s the point isn’t it. Trump doesn’t care about truth. He explicitly told us that, if he hears a story he doesn’t like, he just labels it “fake news.” The qualifying characteristic is “Trump does not like the story,” not “it isn’t true.”

                  He is now busy tearing down trust in our judicial system, one of the three major branches of our system of government. Our judicial system is rooted in the concept of fairness, speedy trial, jury of peers, and other elements that are the envy of many parts of the world. However, Trump is facing multiple indictments, so the entire system is “corrupt” and “unfair” and everyone involved in a case against him is “out to get him.” If he wins the cases, he wins. If he loses, the game is rigged. This is his go-to mantra for everything.

                  He has undermined the very role of truth in our society. Both he and his children have said, verbally and in various writings, that deception is a valid strategy for getting what you want. He understands that a lie repeated often enough becomes truth for some segment of the electorate, and he uses this tactic relentlessly.

                  Most importantly, he has essentially destroyed trust in one another. We are no longer a country of Americans with differing views striving to find a middle ground. We are now enemies to be vanquished, with a country that needs to be “taken back.” Compromise and collaboration are dirty words and attempting to engage in either means you are “working with the enemy.”

                  If there is one overriding characteristic of Mr. Trump that convinces me he does not deserve the Oval Office (and never did), this is it. Our country depends on trust and honor systems. Giving the Oval Office to a man who sees such systems as things to be exploited is not only folly, it is dangerous. Doing so a second time, when there is no question of a second term and Mr. Trump has been clear that he will have no “naysayers” (defined as people who do not agree with him) in his administration is doubly dangerous.

                  Please give serious thought before pulling that lever for Mr. Trump in November. That decision, if you make it, is very likely to have grave consequences for this country.
                  Carpe.

                  Realize that in ALL of those things, he is not alone. Trump is the latest in a long line of escalating versions of all of those.

                  Democrats/liberals have cried fowl in every lost presidential election since GW Bush. They write article after article about how the electoral system is broken. How the Republicans are purging voters, how they are rigging/gaming the system.

                  Democrats/liberals have worked hard at corrupting the media. Before the Trump Years, they would claim media wasn't biased. During the Trump years, they pivoted to "objective means covering Trump 'truthfully' and not 'both sidesing him' . I think I've lately seen that Yellow Journalism is the norm, and its OK to have biased media. So, I'm not sure Trump is actually destroying trust, as other people see what's going on. Plus, let's not forget Obama's war on Fox News.

                  Democrats have been working on undermining trust in the judicial system themselves. Even before the Garland situation, Democrats loved to complain when "5 unelected judges" ruled against them. Since Garland it's only gotten worse. They tried to push through court packing, they rail against "corrupt" justices letting Trump get away with stuff, etc.

                  Democrats/liberals have embraced gaslighting as well. Their court-packing scheme was branded as "Restoring balance". They passed the "Inflation Reduction Act" that had nothing to do with inflation. Politicians Lying has been a joke since WELL before Trump was in office.

                  As for destroying trust in each other. Again, this didn't start with Trump. I'll point you back to the South Park Obama/McCain election results episode.

                  Essentially, this has been an ongoing issue that keeps escalating. Trump is more a symptom of the disease and Not the disease itself. If you want to blame Trump for everything that's wrong, you are suffering from selective Amnesia, and ironically, prone to the same sort of nostalgia bait "Make America Great Again" slogan appealed to.

                  (I brought up a democratic list to point out that this is not one-sided, and Trump isn't alone in the things you claim he is causing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                    Carpe.

                    Realize that in ALL of those things, he is not alone. Trump is the latest in a long line of escalating versions of all of those.

                    Democrats/liberals have cried fowl in every lost presidential election since GW Bush. They write article after article about how the electoral system is broken. How the Republicans are purging voters, how they are rigging/gaming the system.

                    Democrats/liberals have worked hard at corrupting the media. Before the Trump Years, they would claim media wasn't biased. During the Trump years, they pivoted to "objective means covering Trump 'truthfully' and not 'both sidesing him' . I think I've lately seen that Yellow Journalism is the norm, and its OK to have biased media. So, I'm not sure Trump is actually destroying trust, as other people see what's going on. Plus, let's not forget Obama's war on Fox News.

                    Democrats have been working on undermining trust in the judicial system themselves. Even before the Garland situation, Democrats loved to complain when "5 unelected judges" ruled against them. Since Garland it's only gotten worse. They tried to push through court packing, they rail against "corrupt" justices letting Trump get away with stuff, etc.

                    Democrats/liberals have embraced gaslighting as well. Their court-packing scheme was branded as "Restoring balance". They passed the "Inflation Reduction Act" that had nothing to do with inflation. Politicians Lying has been a joke since WELL before Trump was in office.


                    As for destroying trust in each other. Again, this didn't start with Trump. I'll point you back to the South Park Obama/McCain election results episode.

                    Essentially, this has been an ongoing issue that keeps escalating. Trump is more a symptom of the disease and Not the disease itself. If you want to blame Trump for everything that's wrong, you are suffering from selective Amnesia, and ironically, prone to the same sort of nostalgia bait "Make America Great Again" slogan appealed to.

                    (I brought up a democratic list to point out that this is not one-sided, and Trump isn't alone in the things you claim he is causing.
                    Let's not forget Chucky Schumer marching over to the steps of the Supreme Court to place a target on their back, and when someone acted upon it, coming from California with a loaded gun in order to murder Kavanaugh, the left just shrugged (many probably irritated he didn't succeed) -- and Garland still refused to enforce the law against intimidating SCOTUS judges.


                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      Let's not forget Chucky Schumer marching over to the steps of the Supreme Court to place a target on their back, and when someone acted upon it, coming from California with a loaded gun in order to murder Kavanaugh, the left just shrugged (many probably irritated he didn't succeed) -- and Garland still refused to enforce the law against intimidating SCOTUS judges.
                      My point isn't about who's worse, it's about pointing out that this has been building and going on for a while, with Trump just being the latest (and quite frankly, most boorish) in a while. He's not a 'good guy' but the problems we are facing aren't because of him. It's more that the problems we are facing have allowed someone like him to be successful.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        Let's not forget Chucky Schumer marching over to the steps of the Supreme Court to place a target on their back, and when someone acted upon it, coming from California with a loaded gun in order to murder Kavanaugh, the left just shrugged (many probably irritated he didn't succeed) -- and Garland still refused to enforce the law against intimidating SCOTUS judges.
                        Stop with the inconvenient facts.
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                          My point isn't about who's worse, it's about pointing out that this has been building and going on for a while, with Trump just being the latest (and quite frankly, most boorish) in a while. He's not a 'good guy' but the problems we are facing aren't because of him. It's more that the problems we are facing have allowed someone like him to be successful.
                          Neither was it my point. Just reminding everyone what sort of behavior the left turns a blind eye toward while pretending to have the moral high ground.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Let's not forget Chucky Schumer marching over to the steps of the Supreme Court to place a target on their back, and when someone acted upon it, coming from California with a loaded gun in order to murder Kavanaugh, the left just shrugged (many probably irritated he didn't succeed) -- and Garland still refused to enforce the law against intimidating SCOTUS judges.
                            And if you want a real war on the media, look no further than Barrack "The Black Messiah" Obama who used the power of the Federal government to investigate, intimidate, and even imprison any journalist who displeased him, even if it was something as innocuous as reporting on a new policy before Obama had the chance to announce it first, which is substantially worse than anything President Trump did. Liberals are either ignorant of this, or they have simply ignored it.
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                              IOW, it's Trump's fault for pointing out that the emperors are wearing no clothes. Got it.

                              Look, Trump is a narcissistic bombast. I get that. I don't much like him. On the other hand, if you can't see that the deliberate injection of sources of possible fraud into the electoral process, a news media which is little more than the propaganda arm of one political party and abuse of the justice system for political ends aren't problematic in and of themselves, then there's little point in dialogue with you.

                              I'm an INTJ. Alarmist rhetoric will not be persuasive. Ramping up the rhetoric merely tells me you've got nothing substantive, and are attempting to carry your point by yelling louder. I get emails from both main political parties begging for donations. Neither side gets more than an eyeroll.
                              Not to get All True Scotsman on you, but you ain't a real INTJ if you're willing to put out "the deliberate injection of sources of possible fraud into the electoral process" and let that sit as a point of conclusion instead of interrogating whether there is, in fact, any significant amount of electoral fraud in recent elections.

                              You're also not gonna INTJ-your-way out of a dialogue by shotgunning a handful of talking points. That's something but it isn't born of being INTJ.

                              -Sam
                              "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                              Comment

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