A Call to Trumpers/MAGA/Conservatives

[seer]

I imagine because he's ostensibly anti abortion. Plus the usual smattering of culture war bits.

Also maybe 'something something, open boarders, something something '. Not sure how that's Christian, but the venn diagram looks a bit like a circle among the evangelical base.

1. Anti abortion, or rather returned the decision to the states.

2. Trump is much better on the border.

3. Appoints conversative judges who are much more likely to support religious freedom (and have in recent cases).

4. Trump would not change Title IX, like Biden did, which will lead to boys in girl's sports. bathrooms, changing rooms etc...

5. Biden is also supporting transition for minors nationwide in policy, again which Trump would not support.

[carpedm9587]

It's plain and simple. Drop the hyperbole. Don't use words like "cult". You do that when you are trying to "score points" against the other side. Instead of spending your time trying to point out the flaws of the other side, look for points of agreement. Actually TRY to understand the other side's point of view.

First- where exactly have I used "hyperbole?"

Second, the term "cult" has a pretty specific meaning, and the MAGA base and their relationship to Mr. Trump meets that definition. And why do you think "scoring points" on the opposition is a bad thing? Of COURSE the goal, in any debate or argument, is to "score points" or "make winning points." None of this obviates understanding the opposing point of view - or makes the opposition my "enemy." That was the entire point of the OP: we are the opposition in a single country, not the enemies in a country at war.

To be blunt, your posts come across as someone who's convinced that they are perfectly right, and the 'other side' just needs to walk over to your side to make everything better. There doesn't seem to be any consideration that, perhaps, there are reasons that people don't want to buy what you are selling, and are willing to stick by someone that many of them, frankly, can't stand. If you actually look at what people like Cow Poke, Rogue, Sparko say, you'll not find alot of love for Mr. Trouble with Tribbles Toupee. You do have some hard core devotees like MM and Seer, but they aren't actually the majority.

CD - if I didn't think I was right in my views - I wouldn't be posting. I am confident in what I believe, follow the data, and try to present it as I make arguments. The fact that some people don't want to buy what I am offering is obvious - nor do I want to buy what they are offering. I will never support Mr. Trump in any way, and I have been clear about this. And I have also been clear that I have no expectation that the core base (e.g., MM, Seer, etc.) will ever be dislodged from their devotion, and I have slim hopes of convincing some of those who "dislike Mr. Trump but are holding their nose" (e.g., CP, Sparko, etc.) that they are making a bad mistake, I DO hope that there may be lurkers reading who are NOT posting, and some of those might be influenced by actual arguments with actual contents. If not, then the worst case is that I have reworked messaging for other venues in which I post.

As for who is or is not the majority - I have no way to measure that. I do not that there is a lot of graduation in "the base." Hopefully, some of them can be convinced to abandon Mr. Trump.

[carpedm9587]

So basically this was all bull crap:

We need to exchange views. We need to talk, debate, even argue. Then, when the time comes to make a decision, we need to arrive at a reasonable compromise. If we don’t, then one of us will get everything we want and the other will get nothing. A compromise is better. For any issue, do you want to lose it completely? I certainly don’t. I’m willing to give ground if we can find a path.

No. I stand behind what I said.

[Mountain Man]

What do you mean hard core? I didn't even support Trump in either primary. And I made it clear on these boards that I did not want Trump to run this time around.

The liberal definition of "hardcore Trump supporter" seems to be "Anyone who does not believe President Trump is evil incarnate."

[seer]

No. I stand behind what I said.

How do you reason with those you already assume hold ill intent, or worse cultists. Sorry Carp, I don't believe you are sincere.

[EvoUK]

1. Anti abortion, or rather returned the decision to the states.

2. Trump is much better on the border.

3. Appoints conversative judges who are much more likely to support religious freedom (and have in recent cases).

4. Trump would not change Title IX, like Biden did, which will lead to boys in girl's sports. bathrooms, changing rooms etc...

5. Biden is also supporting transition for minors nationwide in policy, again which Trump would not support.

Good to know I was basically on the nose- abortion, culture wars and borders.

[seer]

Good to know I was basically on the nose- abortion, culture wars and borders.

Of course. And?

[Mountain Man]

How do you reason with those you already assume hold ill intent, or worse cultists. Sorry Carp, I don't believe you are sincere.

As I said, he's perfectly willing to have a civil discussion with anyone, so long as they first agree with his opinion of President Trump. If you happen to disagree, well then, you're the problem, not carpe.

[seer]

If you happen to disagree, well then, you're the problem, not carpe.

Well he is morally superior to us rubes, so....

[carpedm9587]

How do you reason with those you already assume hold ill intent, or worse cultists. Sorry Carp, I don't believe you are sincere.

Where did you see me say "ill intent?"

As for being "cultist," I believe that an enormous part of the MAGA base meets the definition of "cult of personality." Someone being a member of a "cult" does not mean they are my enemy. It means it will be that much harder to convince them to abandon the cult - perhaps even impossible. Within a cult - reason and logic have very little meaning, which is what makes the discussion that much more difficult.

Those are general comments about a group. It does not mean I assume that every single person I meet I automatically assume is caught the the grips of a cult. So if you think I am saying "most MAGA participants are caught up in a cult of personality," then you are correct. If you think I am saying, "if you are voting for Trump, you are caught up in a cult of personality," then you have misread what I said.

As for your concerns about my sincerity, I will leave that to you. I have long since learned that there is no point in discussing or arguing my mindset or intent with you or MM.

[CivilDiscourse]

First- where exactly have I used "hyperbole?"

Second, the term "cult" has a pretty specific meaning, and the MAGA base and their relationship to Mr. Trump meets that definition. And why do you think "scoring points" on the opposition is a bad thing? Of COURSE the goal, in any debate or argument, is to "score points" or "make winning points." None of this obviates understanding the opposing point of view - or makes the opposition my "enemy." That was the entire point of the OP: we are the opposition in a single country, not the enemies in a country at war.



CD - if I didn't think I was right in my views - I wouldn't be posting. I am confident in what I believe, follow the data, and try to present it as I make arguments. The fact that some people don't want to buy what I am offering is obvious - nor do I want to buy what they are offering. I will never support Mr. Trump in any way, and I have been clear about this. And I have also been clear that I have no expectation that the core base (e.g., MM, Seer, etc.) will ever be dislodged from their devotion, and I have slim hopes of convincing some of those who "dislike Mr. Trump but are holding their nose" (e.g., CP, Sparko, etc.) that they are making a bad mistake, I DO hope that there may be lurkers reading who are NOT posting, and some of those might be influenced by actual arguments with actual contents. If not, then the worst case is that I have reworked messaging for other venues in which I post.

As for who is or is not the majority - I have no way to measure that. I do not that there is a lot of graduation in "the base." Hopefully, some of them can be convinced to abandon Mr. Trump.

I don't think you understand me.

The problem is that "debate" and "Compromise" are at odds with each other. You can't build consensus if you are focused on "scoring points" against the other side. It's the same with being convinced you are perfectly right. Without being able to concede that there may be areas you don't understand, or lack knowledge on, or (heaven forbid) just can't see from the other side, you actually become an obstacle to the very thing you put forward in the OP.

It's like trying to call for an end to violence, while still threatening others with a stick if they get out of line.

[seer]

As for being "cultist," I believe that an enormous part of the MAGA base meets the definition of "cult of personality." Someone being a member of a "cult" does not mean they are my enemy. It means it will be that much harder to convince them to abandon the cult - perhaps even impossible. Within a cult - reason and logic have very little meaning, which is what makes the discussion that much more difficult.

Was an enormous part of Obama's support because of a cult of personality? I know dozens and dozens of Trump supporters, and they don't strike me as cultists - at all. How many Trump supporters do you personally know?

[carpedm9587]

I don't think you understand me.

The problem is that "debate" and "Compromise" are at odds with each other. You can't build consensus if you are focused on "scoring points" against the other side. It's the same with being convinced you are perfectly right. Without being able to concede that there may be areas you don't understand, or lack knowledge on, or (heaven forbid) just can't see from the other side, you actually become an obstacle to the very thing you put forward in the OP.

It's like trying to call for an end to violence, while still threatening others with a stick if they get out of line.

I think we disagree. Debate/argumentation is the means to arriving at compromise. You try to convince the opposition of the merits of your position. They try to convince you of the merits of theirs. If my position has a weakness, and my opposition can expose it, then it is incumbent on me to concede the point - as part of the debate/argument. In that process, my positions become better and my error is reduced. The same should be true in both directions.

There is a sense, in these responses, that people are interpreting my OP as a call to link arms, dismiss all differences, and sing kumbaya into a cozy bonfire. Perhaps it was written poorly. Perhaps it has been too quickly read. In either case, that was not the point whatsoever. Democracy is messy. It's loud. It can be confrontational. The point is to stay engaged with it as co-equals - not enemies. Where common ground can be found, common ground should be found and exploited. Where common ground cannot be found, we will end up voting and someone will lose. In a functioning democracy, the loser accept the results of that process, and continue the fight to change things in the future. They do not decide that half of the country is "Not Americans and we need to take the country back.

Both sides are doing this to some degree, but there is little doubt in my mind that the Republican party is way down this path. It has become the party of "if I win, I won; if I lose, you cheated." The MAGA candidates cannot even bring themselves to say "I will accept the outcome of this election." That is not a functioning Democracy. It is one party deciding that the only possible outcome is "I get what I want." That is the mindset I am challenging. I challenge it on either side - but right now, most of the issue is arising from those who lean right.

[Mountain Man]

First he says:

Reject his call to turn against your fellow citizens. Put down your arms, both physically and verbally. Join back into this grand experiment we call “America.” Together, we can make America great. It won’t be “great again” because America has always been a mixture of greatness and not-so-greatness. But we can work together to make America greater than it is or has been.

Then he says:

As for being "cultist," I believe that an enormous part of the MAGA base meets the definition of "cult of personality." Someone being a member of a "cult" does not mean they are my enemy. It means it will be that much harder to convince them to abandon the cult - perhaps even impossible. Within a cult - reason and logic have very little meaning, which is what makes the discussion that much more difficult.

Way to practice what you preach, buddy!

Like many liberals, you're just another hypocritical phony who demands respect and charity from others while showing none yourself.

[Diogenes]

Both sides are doing this to some degree, but there is little doubt in my mind that the Republican party is way down this path. It has become the party of "if I win, I won; if I lose, you cheated." The MAGA candidates cannot even bring themselves to say "I will accept the outcome of this election." That is not a functioning Democracy. It is one party deciding that the only possible outcome is "I get what I want." That is the mindset I am challenging. I challenge it on either side - but right now, most of the issue is arising from those who lean right.

In all seriousness, where were you after Trump won? HRC still hasn't accepted the lose. Biden and Harris both agreed Trump was illegitimate when asked on the campaign trail. Iirc, there were even Electoral College voting objections.