Judy Garland Canceled!

[rogue06]

I read across a wide variety of subjects.

You should have read my later reply to our mutual friend. That would have addressed the above question.

I am trying to explain to you that the topic is complex and concerning female impersonators on the stage these performances have a long history and, unsurprisingly, over the course of that history the representations and behaviours have adapted, and been modified and changed, according to the culture[s] in which they develop.

The drag story hour is merely an example from within our contemporary western culture.

So its just our "contemporary western culture" that allowed it to morph into something toxic, where it is used to promote a perverse lifestyle to young children.

I guess then we can pretty much drop the whole long history of drag from the argument since you agree that it was nothing like what we have today.

[seer]

So its just our "contemporary western culture" that allowed it to morph into something toxic, where it is used to promote a perverse lifestyle to young children.

I guess then we can pretty much drop the whole long history of drag from the argument since you agree that it was nothing like what we have today.

I went to my doctors today, they have a new sign in system where I had to check my sex at birth and my gender now. My doctor thought it was stupid - but the state requires it now I guess...

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So its just our "contemporary western culture" that allowed it to morph into something toxic, where it is used to promote a perverse lifestyle to young children.

In your prejudiced opinion.

I guess then we can pretty much drop the whole long history of drag from the argument since you agree that it was nothing like what we have today.

"We"?

What exactly do you know about the history of female impersonation in all its myriad forms?

[rogue06]

I went to my doctors today, they have a new sign in system where I had to check my sex at birth and my gender now. My doctor thought it was stupid - but the state requires it now I guess...

It should include a section for what gender you were on your last visit.

[seer]

It should include a section for what gender you were on your last visit.

But I forgot...

[rogue06]

In your prejudiced opinion.

"We"?

What exactly do you know about the history of female impersonation in all its myriad forms?

So in Elizabethan times when women weren't allowed to perform on stage, the men and boys who played female parts were there to seduce children into being cross-dressers?

In the various pantomime skits where someone performed in drag, the entire purpose was to introduce the young children in the audience to the particular portion of the gay lifestyle where men dressed as women?

Is that how it went?

I don't know if you noticed or not but when various actors in movies and on TV shows disguised themselves as women, and some guy was immediately infatuated with them, that was always played as utterly ridiculous. What man could possibly confuse another man wearing a dress for a woman?

When Milton Berle would wear a dress for a skit, he almost always gave the audience an irritated sidelong glance to make sure everyone was in on the joke

Likewise, when Corporal Klinger (Jamie Farr) wore dresses on M*A*S*H, he was trying to show he was insane and not fit for military service.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

So in Elizabethan times when women weren't allowed to perform on stage, the men and boys who played female parts were there to seduce children into being cross-dressers?

In the various pantomime skits where someone performed in drag, the entire purpose was to introduce the young children in the audience to the particular portion of the gay lifestyle where men dressed as women?

Is that how it went?

You appear to think so.

I don't know if you noticed or not but when various actors in movies and on TV shows disguised themselves as women, and some guy was immediately infatuated with them, that was always played as utterly ridiculous. What man could possibly confuse another man wearing a dress for a woman?

When Milton Berle would wear a dress for a skit, he almost always gave the audience an irritated sidelong glance to make sure everyone was in on the joke

Likewise, when Corporal Klinger (Jamie Farr) wore dresses on M*A*S*H, he was trying to show he was insane and not fit for military service.

Is there a point to any of that? Or are you just citing your favourite television programmes?

[rogue06]

You appear to think so.

No. What I think is that the Elizabethan actors in "drag" were necessary because of the silly ban on women and that pantomime was anything but like the drag shows of today. So you managed to somehow get that turned completely around.

Is there a point to any of that? Or are you just citing your favourite television programmes?

Just two fairly typical examples of the history of female impersonation as presented in recent years. I could have just as easily mentioned Monty Python's depictions.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

No. What I think is that the Elizabethan actors in "drag" were necessary because of the silly ban on women

Only on established theatrical stages in England and the ban continued long after Elizabeth I and was repealed by Charles II. Elsewhere in England women did take part in performances. Within aristocratic and court circles women , even queens, took part in masques. It is also possible that various travelling theatrical groups may have had female performers but these would have performed at fairs or in "low" establishments. However, women would have been involved in other spheres within the established theatres, making and adapting costumes, taking money at the door, and possibly providing in-house snacks and refreshment. It is also likely that other venues where theatrical performances took place may in some instances have been owned by women.

and that pantomime was anything but like the drag shows of today.

Pantomime as it is known in England has its origins within Commedia dell'Arte which was an eclectic mix of high and low-brow culture. The very British concept of the pantomime dame has her/his roots in the nineteenth century and over the last two centuries her persona has developed with ever more spectacular costumes and effects. British pantomime also has a tradition of audience participation, particularly in engaging with children in the audience.

Nor am I entirely convinced that an hour’s story telling even where gender fluidity is part of the plot, is going to magically convince young boys that they are gender fluid and/or girls. This is a popular fantasy among histrionic elements on the Right. Namely, that by exposing red blooded American boys to drag artists and some stories, their masculinity will be sapped and they will become effeminate.

Last night I was re-reading Philip Hoare’s Oscar Wilde’s Last Stand on the 1918 Maude Allen Noel Pemberton Billing libel case and was struck by parallels between the paranoia of the Right towards drag artists converting and corrupting the masculinity of young boys and Pemberton Billing’s fixation that British pro German homosexuals [for him homosexuality was an entirely German vice] were doing likewise among the British military!

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Only on established theatrical stages in England and the ban continued long after Elizabeth I and was repealed by Charles II. Elsewhere in England women did take part in performances. Within aristocratic and court circles women , even queens, took part in masques. It is also possible that various travelling theatrical groups may have had female performers but these would have performed at fairs or in "low" establishments. However, women would have been involved in other spheres within the established theatres, making and adapting costumes, taking money at the door, and possibly providing in-house snacks and refreshment. It is also likely that other venues where theatrical performances took place may in some instances have been owned by women.

Pantomime as it is known in England has its origins within Commedia dell'Arte which was an eclectic mix of high and low-brow culture. The very British concept of the pantomime dame has her/his roots in the nineteenth century and over the last two centuries her persona has developed with ever more spectacular costumes and effects. British pantomime also has a tradition of audience participation, particularly in engaging with children in the audience.

Nor am I entirely convinced that an hour’s story telling even where gender fluidity is part of the plot, is going to magically convince young boys that they are gender fluid and/or girls. This is a popular fantasy among histrionic elements on the Right. Namely, that by exposing red blooded American boys to drag artists and some stories, their masculinity will be sapped and they will become effeminate.

Last night I was re-reading Philip Hoare’s Oscar Wilde’s Last Stand on the 1918 Maud Allan Noel Pemberton Billing libel case and was struck by parallels between the paranoia of the Right towards drag artists converting and corrupting the masculinity of young boys and Pemberton Billing’s fixation that British pro German homosexuals [for him homosexuality was an entirely German vice] were doing likewise among the British military!

Amended for misspelling Allan's first and last name.

[rogue06]

Only on established theatrical stages in England and the ban continued long after Elizabeth I and was repealed by Charles II. Elsewhere in England women did take part in performances. Within aristocratic and court circles women , even queens, took part in masques.

Masques were a lot like balls combined with a pageant. Hardly the same thing.

It is also possible that...

There's that speculating that you pretend to dislike so much.

women would have been involved in other spheres within the established theatres, making and adapting costumes, taking money at the door, and possibly providing in-house snacks and refreshment. It is also likely that other venues where theatrical performances took place may in some instances have been owned by women.

Seamstress, grinders (ticket sellers), and "may" (there's that speculation yet again) have sold refreshments.

If I were H_A I would be demanding your scholarly sources for these assertions but instead I'll settle for noting each of those potential jobs were not in any way entertainers and performers.

Pantomime as it is known in England has its origins within Commedia dell'Arte which was an eclectic mix of high and low-brow culture. The very British concept of the pantomime dame has her/his roots in the nineteenth century and over the last two centuries her persona has developed with ever more spectacular costumes and effects. British pantomime also has a tradition of audience participation, particularly in engaging with children in the audience.

Were these performers doing the equivalent of twerking in the faces of these children and waiting to have them tuck money into their knickers? You've seen some of the images of where I posted that taking place now.

If not, no comparison whatsoever.

Btw, there are shows which appeal to kids with the antics while firing off quick double entendres that soar over the heads of the younger audience members but the parents and other adults catch. Been to a couple plays like that.

Nor am I entirely convinced that an hour’s story telling even where gender fluidity is part of the plot, is going to magically convince young boys that they are gender fluid and/or girls.

T

his is a popular fantasy among histrionic elements on the Right. Namely, that by exposing red blooded American boys to drag artists and some stories, their masculinity will be sapped and they will become effeminate.

[I don't know why this keeps getting split like this. I've changed it three times and it continues to do so]

Combine it with things like teachers who have a "transgender closet" in their classrooms in which students are encouraged to enter as one gender, pick out a new outfit and come out a different gender or with no gender at all. Do you want the link for that?

Plus combine it with all of the attention and praise heaped on kids who declare they are transgender. Breathless accolades commending them for their courage and bravery.

Last night I was re-reading Philip Hoare’s Oscar Wilde’s Last Stand on the 1918 Maude Allen Noel Pemberton Billing libel case and was struck by parallels between the paranoia of the Right towards drag artists converting and corrupting the masculinity of young boys and Pemberton Billing’s fixation that British pro German homosexuals [for him homosexuality was an entirely German vice] were doing likewise among the British military!

Could not care any less.

I will note that for being so brilliant Wilde was a complete idiot and fool. How else do you describe a person suing someone for libel for something that was likely the worst kept secret in London? And it wasn't like his friends weren't trying to stop him from this imbecilic move. In the end, not only did he lose but ended up in jail for just under two years.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Masques were a lot like balls combined with a pageant. Hardly the same thing.

Masques were not "balls combined with a pageant".

Masques were specially composed dramatic entertainments often with specially composed music and generally presented mythological or allegorical themes.

There's that speculating that you pretend to dislike so much.

In some areas one has to speculate accepting that such speculations may be wrong, if and when new evidence is discovered. Certainly any troupes from Europe coming to England, would have had female performers. And we do have a record of a troupe of female Italian acrobats that scandalised at least one Englishman in 1574. Thomas Norton a Puritan, inveighed against the “shameless and unnatural tomblings of the Italian women” [Kathleen Lea, Italian Popular Comedy, A Study of Commedia dell’Arte 1560-1630, Clarenden Press, 1934, p.354].

Seamstress, grinders (ticket sellers), and "may" (there's that speculation yet again) have sold refreshments.

No the "may" is a qualification. We do not know with absolute certainty but we do know that women did own establishments that served food and drink [not necessarily taverns]. Kit Marlowe was killed in such an establishment. And as food was sold in theatres, we can assume some of the vendors would have been women. Although the theatre being the rowdy place it was any woman there would have been considered less than respectable. Pickpockets and prostitutes likewise plied their trades in theatres, and Nell Gwynn is supposed to have had her first theatrical break selling oranges to audience members.

If I were H_A I would be demanding your scholarly sources for these assertions

I would have thought any work covering sixteenth and seventeenth century theatre would suffice. There are various histories of the theatre available and theatre and theatrical performance [mummers, travelling players, local events] are also covered in various social histories of particular historical periods.

I'll settle for noting each of those potential jobs were not in any way entertainers and performers.

Certainly not in the established theatres of the sixteenth and early seventeenth century in England.. The performing arts/theatre of other countries at these periods constitute another large subject area. Should we look at Japan? I have read [somewhere] that in medieval Japan women were directly involved in both the sacred and secular and that the all male Kabuki tradition may have developed from such sacred female rituals.. Perhaps tabibito can offer some comments.

Were these performers doing the equivalent of twerking in the faces of these children and waiting to have them tuck money into their knickers? You've seen some of the images of where I posted that taking place now.

The images you presented appeared far less lascivious than you wish to present. The performers were quite decently dressed given that many were dancing and I do not recall seeing any child "tuck money" into any drag artist's "knickers". There are various images of children handing money to drag artists but that is not quite the same thing.

However, sixteenth and seventeenth century theatre could be extremely bawdy. There are numerous sexual references and innuendoes found across many plays and gestures, and possibly ad libs, would no doubt have accompanied those lines. Also remember there was a lot of [for want of a better term] audience interaction in those performances and the groundlings would not, generally, have been quite so appreciative of the allusions and references to matters classical.

Combine it with things like teachers who have a "transgender closet" in their classrooms in which students are encouraged to enter as one gender, pick out a new outfit and come out a different gender or with no gender at all. Do you want the link for that?

Introducing that topic is a distraction.

Plus combine it with all of the attention and praise heaped on kids who declare they are transgender. Breathless accolades commending them for their courage and bravery.

That I suspect is hyperbolic language on your part.

Could not care any less.

Yet the same paranoid prejudice existed with the fear that red blooded males were being corrupted and rendered weak and effeminate.

[rogue06]

[FONT=Helvetica] Masques were not "balls combined with a pageant".

Masques were specially composed dramatic entertainments often with specially composed music and generally presented mythological or allegorical themes.

While there are some differences, the things you listed could be associated with any of the three, not as much with pageants (though much more so with secular ones) as with balls

In some areas one has to speculate accepting that such speculations may be wrong, if and when new evidence is discovered.

Speculation. Only permissible when H_A engages in it. Interesting that your speculation are to be judged as accurate unless contrary evidence is produced.

Certainly any troupes from Europe coming to England, would have had female performers. And we do have a record of a troupe of female Italian acrobats that scandalised at least one Englishman in 1574. Thomas Norton a Puritan, inveighed against the “shameless and unnatural tomblings of the Italian women” [Kathleen Lea, Italian Popular Comedy, A Study of Commedia dell’Arte 1560-1630, Clarenden Press, 1934, p.354].

That there are exceptions to the rule, or what looks like ignored violations are no surprise.

And FWIU, it wasn't uncommon for an act or even performer, to be banned in a particular jurisdiction while the rest of the troupe performs. Particularly those that satirized someone in power a bit too well.

No the "may" is a qualification.

And turns it into speculation.

We do not know with absolute certainty but we do know that women did own establishments that served food and drink [not necessarily taverns]. Kit Marlowe was killed in such an establishment. And as food was sold in theatres, we can assume some of the vendors would have been women. Although the theatre being the rowdy place it was any woman there would have been considered less than respectable. Pickpockets and prostitutes likewise plied their trades in theatres, and Nell Gwynn is supposed to have had her first theatrical break selling oranges to audience members.

Running a business where entertainers performed is not the same thing by any means. Nor is selling food or other items and services to the crowd.

Certainly not in the established theatres of the sixteenth and early seventeenth century in England.. The performing arts/theatre of other countries at these periods constitute another large subject area. Should we look at Japan? I have read [somewhere] that in medieval Japan women were directly involved in both the sacred and secular and that the all male Kabuki tradition may have developed from such sacred female rituals.. Perhaps tabibito can offer some comments.

Women entertainers were not unknown in Japan. Geishas apparently originated from servers and prostitutes around the 18th century. Kabuki originally had both men and women with a number of the latter also acting as prostitutes.

[

The images you presented appeared far less lascivious than you wish to present. The performers were quite decently dressed given that many were dancing and I do not recall seeing any child "tuck money" into any drag artist's "knickers". There are various images of children handing money to drag artists but that is not quite the same thing.

Are you referring to the images of "wardrobe malfunctions" like where the drag queen "forgot" to put on underwear before performing in front of children? Or the one who wore only sheer pantyhose sitting with legs spread wide while reading?

And while no images of children actually sticking bills into their thongs, there are some with kids holding dollar bills standing next to the drag queen, who has bills tucked in her g-string.

However, sixteenth and seventeenth century theatre could be extremely bawdy. There are numerous sexual references and innuendoes found across many plays and gestures, and possibly ad libs, would no doubt have accompanied those lines. Also remember there was a lot of [for want of a better term] audience interaction in those performances and the groundlings would not, generally, have been quite so appreciative of the allusions and references to matters classical.

As I noted, even today you have shows that entertain the children with their antics while the adults catch the double entendres tossed out.

Even so, children then were essentially viewed as small adults. They could be found working long hours at the same sort of jobs adults did (within limits of size and strength of course), drinking beer and smoking, as well as getting the same sentences in court for criminal offenses that adults did. Maybe you think we should return to such a period?

Introducing that topic is a distraction.

Actually it drove a hole through your claim that these sort of things can't influence children's behavior.

That I suspect is hyperbolic language on your part.

No. Not at all.

[Mountain Man]

In perhaps one of the more heartbreaking developments, black child actors were enlisted in blackface acts, including an elementary school-aged Sammy Davis Jr. He was a black child portraying a white man portraying a stereotypical black person. Audiences howled in laughter. It is little wonder that Davis, who died in 1990, would spend a lifetime enduring racial jokes and put-downs, despite his many gifts as an entertainer.

One of the landmark radio shows in American history was “Amos ’n’ Andy,” which began in 1928 and featured white actors portraying black characters. It was rife with black caricature. Black audiences, starved for entertainment, listened as well as whites. In June 1951, the show landed on television. The actors were now black, but the stereotypes were intact. The protests were swift, and the show lasted less than two years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/a...p-culture.html

Interestingly, some year ago, I worked with a number of black folks, both younger and older, who were big fans of the Amos & Andy television show. They thought it was hilarious.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

While there are some differences, the things you listed could be associated with any of the three, not as much with pageants (though much more so with secular ones) as with balls.

A ball or pageant was not a masque.

Speculation. Only permissible when H_A engages in it. Interesting that your speculation are to be judged as accurate unless contrary evidence is produced.

Unlike some I am not presenting my speculations as facts!

That there are exceptions to the rule, or what looks like ignored violations are no surprise.

Read up on European theatre in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

And FWIU, it wasn't uncommon for an act or even performer, to be banned in a particular jurisdiction while the rest of the troupe performs. Particularly those that satirized someone in power a bit too well.

Are you referring to the Master of the Revels' control over productions in the fifteen and early sixteen hundreds? Or the Stage Licensing Act of the early seventeen hundreds?

And turns it into speculation.

No it offers a qualification.

Running a business where entertainers performed is not the same thing by any means. Nor is selling food or other items and services to the crowd.

Whoever suggested it was? I simply noted that there establishments at which performances took place outside of the established theatres

Women entertainers were not unknown in Japan.

Evidently not, as I have noted.

Are you referring to the images of "wardrobe malfunctions" like where the drag queen "forgot" to put on underwear before performing in front of children? Or the one who wore only sheer pantyhose sitting with legs spread wide while reading?

As those images were adjusted for "modesty" neither you nor I can be sure if the offending organs were visible. The person taking the image may have doctored the image to make their point about the depravity of drag artists. We cannot be entirely certain given the heightened emotions among those who deem all such events to be depraved and corrupting to youth..

And while no images of children actually sticking bills into their thongs, there are some with kids holding dollar bills standing next to the drag queen, who has bills tucked in her g-string.

If that is a reference to Bella Blue she is not a drag queen. She is a biological female burlesque dancer.

As I noted, even today you have shows that entertain the children with their antics while the adults catch the double entendres tossed out.

I think you might find that some of the behaviour in sixteenth and seventeenth century theatres involved more than some double entendres!

Even so, children then were essentially viewed as small adults. They could be found working long hours at the same sort of jobs adults did (within limits of size and strength of course), drinking beer and smoking, as well as getting the same sentences in court for criminal offenses that adults did. Maybe you think we should return to such a period?

Well you could go back to the USA in the 1930s!

Actually it drove a hole through your claim that these sort of things can't influence children's behavior.

Where is your evidence that attending a drag story hour has led a boy to decide he is transgender?

No. Not at all.

Yes it was.