The Ray Epps Thread

[Ronson]

Excellent definition of those involved in the Jan. 6 insurrection in the Capital Riot. Out of the thousands involved in the Jan.6 less that 1000 are consider subject to being charged with serious crimes,

Epps fits the statute exactly. Never arrested.

Logical arguments can and have been subject of 'proof' if the line of reasoning is sufficient to accept the conclusions. There are standards of evidence in both logical and legal arguments which you have not met in your argument.

Regardless of whether you can 'prove' anything or provide the equivalent to a legal case against Epps being an FBI informant the problem remains is you have presented absolutely no evidence that Epps was an FBI informant out of the thousands who participated and not arrested nor charged with anything. Your getting lost in numbers and NOT addressing whether there is evidence of Epps being an FBI informant.

He matches the statute exactly, yet he was not arrested. Others were arrested who failed to match the statue. Preferential treatment demands an explanation, and you have not provided any explanation for that. I have.

Source: https://time.com/6133336/jan-6-capitol-riot-arrests-sentences/

More than 840 people have been arrested for storming the U.S. Capitol building on Jan. 6, 2021, with charges ranging from obstruction of an official proceeding to assault. But 17 months after the attempted insurrection, a significant number of rioters are still awaiting their sentencing.

Only around a quarter of those arrested—185 individuals—have received criminal sentences, while the rest are waiting for their trials or haven’t yet reached plea agreements. According to the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Columbia, 80 defendants were sentenced to periods of incarceration, with longer prison terms for those who engaged in violence or threats. So far, the median prison sentence for the Jan. 6 rioters is 45 days. An additional 57 rioters have been sentenced to periods of home detention, while most sentences have included fines, community service and probation for low-level offenses like illegally parading or demonstrating in the Capitol, which is a misdemeanor.

Hundreds of additional cases are expected to be adjudicated in the coming months, with a number of sentencing hearings already on the calendar this fall.

© Copyright Original Source

That article is more than 5 months older than the article I provided, which puts the number of those charged in connection with the "insurrection" at 955 as of 11-22-22. That number includes many charged with curfew violations.

How many people were involved in the Jan. 6 insurrection?:

Source: https://news.yahoo.com/jan-6-numbers-120024334.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall

armed with Molotov cocktails and dressed in tactical gear, storm the nation’s Capitol and violently clash with police. Spurred on by then-President Trump, rioters had traveled from far and wide to stop Congress from certifying the results of the 2020 presidential election.

Hundreds involved in the siege have been arrested, but many remain at large as officials piece together what happened on Jan. 6, 2021.

The day began with a rally to bolster Trump’s false claim that the 2020 presidential race was stolen from him. Before Congress certified election results, thousands of Trump supporters gathered on the National Mall, just south of the White House, and listened for hours as some of Trump’s most prominent defenders, including his personal lawyer, former New York Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, promoted the falsehood.

Rally organizers told the National Park Service that they anticipated 30,000 people would attend. Law enforcement said the crowd size ahead of the protest was possibly as much as 80,000, according to then-Army Secretary Ryan McCarthy. The crowd size at the rally was at least 10,000, according to the Associated Press.

© Copyright Original Source

That article is even older.

Less than 1000 were arrested for various reason. It is possible that the thousands that were not arrested were FBI informants.

The extra curfew violators? Perhaps so. I seriously doubt any of them were caught on video inciting an insurrection, as Epps did.

Can you present any other evidence than the fact that Epps was not arrested?

The preponderance of posts I've submitted to this thread and the links they include.

Actually the claim that there is no evidence Epps was employed is problematic. He may have worked under the radar privately with no records, which is more common than you may think. My father bought and sold used cars out of our home leaving no records that he ever had a business.

He may have, although he claims his occupation was renting his barn for weddings. Although I have found online evidence of that, this was a relatively recent endeavor of his and it does not inspire a sufficient income compared to his assets.

[Diogenes]

Fun thing about informants, the FBI had an informant inside the OathKeepers, Greg McWhirter, per the NYT (behind paywall) The number two person. So the FBI had an OathKeeper informant but refused to prevent the activities of the OathKeeper or step up security on 1/6.

[shunyadragon]

Right off the top of my head I know that is demonstrably untrue. Of the 900+ people charged, over 250 (more than a quarter of them) were charged with assaulting or impeding law enforcement during fights that took place outside the Capitol. There were also some who were charged with assaulting members of the press and damaging their equipment, which, FWICT, was all pretty much outside as well.

A more in-depth query into your claim would almost certainly find even more instances of people being arrested who never entered the Capitol building.

A more in-depth!?!?!? means nothing. It is obvious that many? were arrested who never entered the Capital, and this of course true and many were not arrested. The statement in a previous source is that there is a priority for those that entered the Capital, and of course committed violence against law enforcement, press and others. None the less there were thousands that were not arrested. Like hundreds of others there is no record of him going into the Capital, destruction of property nor committing violence, and not arrested.

[shunyadragon]

Fun thing about informants, the FBI had an informant inside the OathKeepers, Greg McWhirter, per the NYT (behind paywall) The number two person. So the FBI had an OathKeeper informant but refused to prevent the activities of the OathKeeper or step up security on 1/6.

Interesting, but not the subject of the thread. That was a problem with Trump and his gang in charge, like Trump watching from television and not doing anything on Jan. 6.

[seanD]

Fun thing about informants, the FBI had an informant inside the OathKeepers, Greg McWhirter, per the NYT (behind paywall) The number two person. So the FBI had an OathKeeper informant but refused to prevent the activities of the OathKeeper or step up security on 1/6.

They also had multiple "informants" in the Proud Boys, and FBI heads won't come clean and tell us if these "informants" were on the ground during 1/6 (they undoubtedly were). Best case scenario is that they knew exactly what was coming that day and did nothing about it -- that's BEST case. Although the Oath Keepers "informant" looks like they orchestrated a Whitmer kidnapping type of plot, only this time they got away with it.

[shunyadragon]

An agent provocateur would not be arrested.

It would enhance his cover as an informant if arrested. Hundreds were not arrested that acted in a similar way as Epps.

To your claim for those subject to arrest, that has been covered.

Not really, since hundreds with similar actions as Epps were not arrested.


[quote https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...imilar-conduct [/quote]

From your source:

Defenders of Epps, such as Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger of Illinois, say Epps is a free man because there is no evidence he engaged in acts of violence or entered the Capitol building.

The New York Times reported Tuesday that Epps committed an offense by entering a restricted part of Capitol grounds but added that the offense "has largely gone unpunished."

[Mountain Man]

They also had multiple "informants" in the Proud Boys, and FBI heads won't come clean and tell us if these "informants" were on the ground during 1/6 (they undoubtedly were). Best case scenario is that they knew exactly what was coming that day and did nothing about it -- that's BEST case. Although the Oath Keepers "informant" looks like they orchestrated a Whitmer kidnapping type of plot, only this time they got away with it.

Worse than that, President Trump even offered to call in the National Guard for increased security, but Nancy Pelosi refused.

[Diogenes]

Interesting, but not the subject of the thread. That was a problem with Trump and his gang in charge, like Trump watching from television and not doing anything on Jan. 6.

As the thread starter, the fact that the FBI knowingly allowed the OathKeeprs to do what was alleged in the Rhodes trail is HIGHLY relevant. The FBI knowingly allowed sedition conspiracy to occur.

[Mountain Man]

As the thread starter, the fact that the FBI knowingly allowed the OathKeeprs to do what was alleged in the Rhodes trail is HIGHLY relevant. The FBI knowingly allowed sedition conspiracy to occur.

It's one of shuny's more charming tactics that whenever his opponent scores a point against him in a debate, he suddenly declares it unimportant or irrelevant and then tries to quickly move on before anybody notices.

[seanD]

It's one of shuny's more charming tactics that whenever his opponent scores a point against him in a debate, he suddenly declares it unimportant or irrelevant and then tries to quickly move on before anybody notices.

He's like "Don't look over there look over here!" whataboutisms. Problem is, he's just not smart enough to make it less obvious that's what he's doing.

[Diogenes]

The New York Times reported Tuesday that Epps committed an offense by entering a restricted part of Capitol grounds but added that the offense "has largely gone unpunished."

Thank you for agreeing that Epps did in fact commit an offence and has yet to be be arrested for said offence.

[alaskazimm]

Thank you for agreeing that Epps did in fact commit an offence and has yet to be be arrested for said offence.

Shunny quite often posts sources that undermine his own position

[Stoic]

Thank you for agreeing that Epps did in fact commit an offence and has yet to be be arrested for said offence.

It does appear that Epps committed an offense by moving into the area past the original barriers. But as was pointed out, most of the people who did that were not arrested. One person who was arrested for that was Raechel Genco, but it appears that she was treated particularly harshly, rather than Epps being treated particularly leniently. Her connection to her boyfriend Ryan Samsel may have had something to do with that.

Aside from that, Epps is on video from the night before urging people to enter the Capitol, but that was not illegal. He was present when the barricades were breached, but that was not illegal. He spoke to Samsel just before Samsel started the breach of the barricades, but Epps says he was trying to calm Samsel down, and Samsel said the same thing, while also claiming that he didn't know the guy who was trying to calm him down.

It's also true that some people were arrested for "merely" violating curfew, but I haven't seen any evidence that Epps violated curfew.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Ray Epps worked for the FBI, but this thread hasn't provided me with any reason to believe that he did.

[seanD]

It does appear that Epps committed an offense by moving into the area past the original barriers. But as was pointed out, most of the people who did that were not arrested. One person who was arrested for that was Raechel Genco, but it appears that she was treated particularly harshly, rather than Epps being treated particularly leniently. Her connection to her boyfriend Ryan Samsel may have had something to do with that.

Aside from that, Epps is on video from the night before urging people to enter the Capitol, but that was not illegal. He was present when the barricades were breached, but that was not illegal. He spoke to Samsel just before Samsel started the breach of the barricades, but Epps says he was trying to calm Samsel down, and Samsel said the same thing, while also claiming that he didn't know the guy who was trying to calm him down.

It's also true that some people were arrested for "merely" violating curfew, but I haven't seen any evidence that Epps violated curfew.

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Ray Epps worked for the FBI, but this thread hasn't provided me with any reason to believe that he did.

What makes you think the point of the thread is to convince you of anything? I can't speak for Diogenes, but I don't see that implied anywhere in the OP.

[shunyadragon]

Thank you for agreeing that Epps did in fact commit an offence and has yet to be be arrested for said offence.

Along with hundreds if not thousands of others that did in fact commit offences, but did not enter the Capital, assault others or damage property and have yet to be arrested or charged. Any one or more could be an FBI informant based on this logic.