Originally posted by JimL
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Split from Economics thread - Abortion Discussions
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe legal distinction as to when life begins is not a philosophical judgement such as is the religious distinction. The legal distinction is based on the science which in this case isn't conclusive since science can not make that determination conclusively. What the ancients may have thought is irrelevant.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThe legal distinction currently allows for termination as long as a toenail is inside the mother. It is based purely on convenience. Science has zip to do with it. Even YOU don't think that science is conclusive here - so why bring it up?
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Originally posted by Jaecp View PostNobody actually does that though. >90% happens in the first trimester.
Less than 100 happens in the third trimester every year and those are all health of the mother emergencies.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSo, heck, let's just kill the baby until we can prove otherwise. I sure hope that sounded a lot better bouncing around in your big empty head.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostWhat does this have to do with the legal distinction JimL brought up?
I rather doubt this. In the third trimester the fetus is generally sufficiently well-developed to survive outside of the womb - and with a partial-birth abortion, the baby is already half-way born anyway.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2003/06...tatistics.html
"91 percent are performed during the first trimester (12 or fewer weeks' gestation); 9 percent are performed in the second trimester (24 or fewer weeks' gestation); and only about 100 are performed in the third trimester (more than 24 weeks' gestation), approximately .01 percent"
Apologies for the sloppy formatting, I'm on my phone and honestly didn't expect you to doubt me on something so basic
It's not like those 100 a year are people deciding to abort on a whim. There are medical conditions that can kill women, many of which also mean the fetus is a goner, but through abortion saves the mothers life.
Oh, and also some proportion is cases where the lungs or something failed to develop.
See, you're right. Most are sufficiently developed at that point. That's why there are only 100 per year in the 3rd trimester. Every single one of those 100 women wanted to bring their baby to term, but fate didn't agree.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYou can pretend all you want, Tazzy, and hide behind your technical legal definitions, but it's clear to anybody with a functioning brain that a fetus is a stage of development of the human being, there being no human beings on the planet that did not start out as a fetus.And to call me dishonest merely for stating my logical opinion on the matter is quite gutless of you.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostThe legal distinction currently allows for termination as long as a toenail is inside the mother. It is based purely on convenience. Science has zip to do with it. Even YOU don't think that science is conclusive here - so why bring it up?
But science does have to do with those decisions, it determines the onset of brain activity, and the onset of brain activity is the point at which the courts determined actual personhood to begin. So, the determination of when life begins isn't made by science, but it is determined by the courts based on the science.
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Ah, I see what you did there... once again, transitioning to "person" so you can go on your "personhood" kick.
You're quite the slippery one, Tazzy.
Spare me the mock outrage.
Because that "insensate fetus" has a very high degree of probability of progressing one day to adulthood.
The latter is not tolerated in any society on earth (religious or secular), whereas the former is a minority position usually (not always) based on religious grounds.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIn meaningful terms
the brain brain function IS the human being.
When it ceases you die
and before it develops there is no "you".
To say more than this is to argue from a philosophical/theological perspective, which you're entitled to do. But you are NOT entitled to impose your view on those who think differently.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe legal distinction as to when life begins is not a philosophical judgement such as is the religious distinction. The legal distinction is based on the science which in this case isn't conclusive since science can not make that determination conclusively. What the ancients may have thought is irrelevant.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Jaecp View PostWhy doubt me on basic facts? We disagree on interpretation, but how often have you known me and how often do I get my basic research wrong?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2003/06...tatistics.html
"91 percent are performed during the first trimester (12 or fewer weeks' gestation); 9 percent are performed in the second trimester (24 or fewer weeks' gestation); and only about 100 are performed in the third trimester (more than 24 weeks' gestation), approximately .01 percent"
Apologies for the sloppy formatting, I'm on my phone and honestly didn't expect you to doubt me on something so basic
It's not like those 100 a year are people deciding to abort on a whim. There are medical conditions that can kill women, many of which also mean the fetus is a goner, but through abortion saves the mothers life.
Oh, and also some proportion is cases where the lungs or something failed to develop.
See, you're right. Most are sufficiently developed at that point. That's why there are only 100 per year in the 3rd trimester. Every single one of those 100 women wanted to bring their baby to term, but fate didn't agree.
If the life of the mother is at stake, and abortion is the only way to prevent the loss of both lives, I'm willing to countenance it. However, the vast majority of abortions don't pass that criterion.Last edited by One Bad Pig; 01-01-2017, 09:37 PM.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAh, I see what you did there... once again, transitioning to "person" so you can go on your "personhood" kick.You're quite the slippery one, Tazzy.Because that "insensate fetus" has a very high degree of probability of progressing one day to adulthood.
Because I believe life is precious, Tazzy. Even yours.Last edited by Tassman; 01-02-2017, 01:21 AM.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostMeaning let's skip the biology and go to philosophy, and hope no one notices...In your philosophical opinion. I'm not talking philosophy. I am talking biology.Depends on how you define "you". Biologically, as long as you are on the path of human growth and development, you are an individual living member of our species.
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