"It’s dehumanizing"

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

No it is an actual human organism. It is a potential human adult.

No it is a potential human being. A ten centimetre human embryo at fifteen weeks gestation is not a child or a human adult . It has the potential to be both.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

No one is denying that physical and mental development continue after delivery.

2. A newborn cannot survive ex utero either. By your logic killing it woul also be ok.

No that is your logic not mine.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

It's 100% inhumane for the murdered baby. And dismissing the murdered baby as being a consequence of the crime against the woman is 100% inhumane.

A 10 centimetre embryo at fifteen weeks gestation is not a "baby".

[rogue06]

Rogue, I think the sympathy must go to the one that can actually suffer, or that can suffer the most.

A developing fetus aborted before it has developed (or even for a while after) any sort of nervous system will not actually suffer, or even have any awareness it was ever deprived of anything. In fact, it will never have any sort of awareness. (it's a bit absurd to think a person raped would not be vigilant in trying to determine if there was a pregnancy. Incest however might present a problem in terms of late discovery). The mother, OTOH, will have to deal with the emotional scarring of the Rape or incest for the rest of her life. Forcing her to further take on the additional responsibility of a child as a single mother, likely in poverty, or to have to undergo the pains of separation from a newborn is truly misguided for the sake of one that will not even know anything was amiss. That is not to say there might not also be emotional consequences related to an abortion - it's going to be rough all the way around - Rock and a hard place - and a situation I think anyone should be extremely cautious about deciding for another person what the 'right' road is. But they will need support either way they proceed.

Yeah, "it's" just a lump of tissue.

[Mountain Man]

If you are a biological male my comment is a fact.

That males can not become pregnant is a fact. Your implication that this disqualifies them from being able to voice an opinion about abortion is a non sequitur.

And I see you have no response regarding your silly notion that we should only consider creating laws if doing so is guaranteed to eliminate an immoral act.

[rogue06]

Rogue, as I pointed out to mossy, your accounting is off. When you force the mother to carry the baby to term, you are also creating a victim. Only you are victimizing one who is already a victim, which is itself quite immoral. The choice here is not to do evil or to do good. The choice is to do evil, or to do evil. No matter which way one goes, one is doing a second evil.

But there is only one that will actually be aware of that an evil is being done unless the pregnancy is discovered fairly late in the process.

In your world is creating a victim out of the most innocent human life imaginable moral? Because that is effectively what you argued here.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Have you stepped up and pledged complete emotional, psychological and financial support for their abortions?

Have any of you men stepped up to volunteer to adopt upward of 5 unwanted babies?

Given that at least four of you have expressed concerns about abortion that is a minimum of twenty innocent lives you all could save.

I also asked that question on page 2 at post #30 and never received any answer.

[rogue06]

If you are a biological male my comment is a fact.

A "fact" that gets immediately and unceremoniously dumped into the rubbish when nine men decided that abortion should be legal in the U.S.

Freakin' hypocrite.

[rogue06]

Have any of you men stepped up to volunteer to adopt upward of 5 unwanted babies?

Given that at least four of you have expressed concerns about abortion that is a minimum of twenty innocent lives you all could save.

I also asked that question on page 2 at post #30 and never received any answer.

Would you argue that those who want open borders need to bring immigrants into their own home? How about death penalty opponents being required to house convicted murderers? Of course not. Then why would you argue that those who are against murdering an unborn baby must adopt unwanted babies?

In any case maybe you should talk to me older liddle twin brudder from anudder mudder (Cow Poke) the next time he's around about finding adoptive parents for babies.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

In your world is creating a victim out of the most innocent human life imaginable moral? Because that is effectively what you argued here.

And what are you proposing?

Are you not also creating victims?

A woman is forced to go through a pregnancy and give birth to a child she does not want with all the emotional and psychological "baggage" that will engender. The child may be abandoned, neglected, or be reared in a dysfunctional environment and/or poverty.

However, for the pro-birth lobby all that is irrelevant because they have "saved" an "innocent" from being aborted. What sort of life that "innocent" can look forward to after it has been delivered is of little interest to them.

[Roy]

What women who claim that it's their right to do what they want with their own bodies fail to realize is that the unborn child isn't a part of their body.

It's someone else's body, and they have NO rights over anybody else.

Now apply that argument in the other direction.

[Mountain Man]

A "fact" that gets immediately and unceremoniously dumped into the rubbish when nine men decided that abortion should be legal in the U.S.

Freakin' hypocrite.

Or when a woman decides to keep the child and now the man is on the hook for child support payments for the next 18-years. If anything, we need more protections for men. Either give the man equal say in whether or not the woman should get an abortion, or remove any obligation he has to support the child if the woman decides to give birth.

[Sparko]

No it is a potential human being. A ten centimetre human embryo at fifteen weeks gestation is not a child or a human adult . It has the potential to be both.

An infant is not a human adult either But it is a human organism, as is a fetus or a zygote.

Even you were once a single celled organism, Hypatia. Even you.

[rogue06]

And what are you proposing?

Are you not also creating victims?

A woman is forced to go through a pregnancy and give birth to a child she does not want with all the emotional and psychological "baggage" that will engender. The child may be abandoned, neglected, or be reared in a dysfunctional environment and/or poverty.

However, for the pro-birth lobby all that is irrelevant because they have "saved" an "innocent" from being aborted. What sort of life that "innocent" can look forward to after it has been delivered is of little interest to them.

This is definitely a problem with no easy answers and I'm certainly not pretending to have them.

But one thing should be obvious. You don't try to fix it by turning what is inarguably the most innocent of humans into a victim -- a victim that must pay the ultimate price. Their life.

[CivilDiscourse]

How interesting that most of the responses so far have been from those who will never find themselves pregnant.

The view that banning abortion entirely will also "make it go away" is another ludicrously naive belief. However, at least on this thread it seems that patriarchy rules!

Who did you expect was going to answer? How many women do you think frequent this particular sub-forum? Just by statistics alone, why did you think anything else was going to happen?

Or, you really didn't think that comment through before writing it, did you?