George H. W. Bush voting for Clinton

[Sea of red]

Mainly Christian philosophy, NT history, and Christian theology.

I figured you still debated abortion.

[Sparko]

What does you living in whatever part of Germany you were in, have to do with this Reaganite propaganda? That doesn't make your opinion necessarily gospel and mine incorrect.

His speech had little if any effect on the Berlin wall falling - it damn sure had nothing to do with the Cold War ending. East Germany was bankrupt and it's citizens had grown tired of the puppet state it had become, and the elections were to be the tipping point. By then, people wanted out of East Germany, and it's was going to happen one way or another. The debt, the political corruption, etc was just too much for people anymore.

The East Germans brought down the East-Germany, not Ronald Reagan. But you already knew that.

sigh. Because of Reagan and his talking with Gorbachev, the Berlin wall came down and Gorbachev dissolved the Soviet union. Yes, they were bankrupt, because of the USA. And Reagan was instrumental in getting Gorbachev to both turn over East Germany and dissolving the USSR. It's a fact. I remember. I lived through it. You can try to revise it all you want but you are wrong. sorry.

[Roy]

The nazi's were stopped before establishing the bases in Germany, Starlight. The bases were there as part of NATO to defend Europe from the USSR. As I said earlier, I lived on three Army bases in Germany in the 1960's and 1970's that were Pershing Missile bases, who's primary purpose was as a nuclear deterrent to the USSR. After the USSR dissolved, a lot of the US Military bases were closed down across Europe. The bases were and are not occupying forces. LPOT is entirely correct on this matter and you and Sea of Red and Roy are the ones who are wrong and do not have a clue what you are talking about.

The Nazis were indeed stopped before the bases were established, but that does not mean that the US was invited in to set up military bases and work closely with the German government.

Germany was under Allied military occupation from 1945 to 1949. The German request to end the state of war between Germany and the US in 1949 was not granted (see the Petersberg agreement), ostensibly because "the U.S. wants to retain a legal basis for keeping a U.S. force in Western Germany". Following the start of the Korean War in 1950, the US increased the number of troops stationed in Germany in order to counter the possible Russian threat. When Germany did regain sovereignty in 1955 under the Bonn-Paris convention, the protocol on the termination of the occupation included a clause that Allied nations would be able to maintain their military presence at the same strength as at the time of ratification. The data shows that the US did exactly that, maintaining their deployment in Germany at roughly 1955 levels until after the Berlin wall was torn down in 1989, when they finally started negotiating a final settlement and renunciation of all rights held in Germany.

While it is true that the current US forces in Germany are there with the permission and agreement of the German government, and the cold war US military presence in Germany was intended as a deterrent to the Russians and not an occupational force, that military presence was established while Germany was still an occupied nation, and there has been no substantial increase in US military presence since.

Littlepixieoferror's claim that "we were invited to those countries to set up these installations and work closely with them" is complete hogwash.

[Roy]

No. You have agreements in place that maintain your military presence in those countries. US military presence in those countries was established by invasion during WWII.

Repeating your same talking points, doesn't make them true because you can repeat the over and over again.

Irrelevant spittle-filled snideness doesn't make them false.

[lilpixieofterror]

Irrelevant spittle-filled snideness doesn't make them false.

And this comes from the same person that is so obsessed with trying to prove me wrong on something, that he follows me around like a love sick puppy, trying to desperately prove me wrong on something, only to be shown that he is actually wrong again. Lets see if you'll answer the question this time:

Do the US bases currently in Japan, Italy, and Germany exist because we have treaties and agreements with these countries to allow them to stay? Yes or no?

Answer the question please or you could keep up with the snide comments that prove you are everything you hate.

[lilpixieofterror]

The Nazis were indeed stopped before the bases were established, but that does not mean that the US was invited in to set up military bases and work closely with the German government.

Germany was under Allied military occupation from 1945 to 1949. The German request to end the state of war between Germany and the US in 1949 was not granted (see the Petersberg agreement), ostensibly because "the U.S. wants to retain a legal basis for keeping a U.S. force in Western Germany". Following the start of the Korean War in 1950, the US increased the number of troops stationed in Germany in order to counter the possible Russian threat. When Germany did regain sovereignty in 1955 under the Bonn-Paris convention, the protocol on the termination of the occupation included a clause that Allied nations would be able to maintain their military presence at the same strength as at the time of ratification. The data shows that the US did exactly that, maintaining their deployment in Germany at roughly 1955 levels until after the Berlin wall was torn down in 1989, when they finally started negotiating a final settlement and renunciation of all rights held in Germany.

While it is true that the current US forces in Germany are there with the permission and agreement of the German government, and the cold war US military presence in Germany was intended as a deterrent to the Russians and not an occupational force, that military presence was established while Germany was still an occupied nation, and there has been no substantial increase in US military presence since.

Littlepixieoferror's claim that "we were invited to those countries to set up these installations and work closely with them" is complete hogwash.

Too bad those events happened decades ago and the modern day reason we have bases in Germany, Japan, and Italy is due to agreements with those countries. Oops, gosh you're quite obsessed with trying to prove me wrong on any minor point you can, eh Roy? Gosh, I must really got your goat for you to be this obsessed.

FYI you are aware that the US government, by the agreements made back before the end of WWII, couldn't legally end any occupation without a counsel vote (consisting of the US, UK, France, and the USSR) to prior approve such actions, right?

[Roy]

Too bad those events happened decades ago and the modern day reason we have bases in Germany, Japan, and Italy is due to agreements with those countries.

Once again, those agreements concern retaining the bases, not setting them up. The US was not invited to Germany.

You were wrong.

[lilpixieofterror]

Once again, those agreements concern retaining the bases, not setting them up. The US was not invited to Germany.

You were wrong.

My dear sweet Roy, those bases were built or occupied in the 1950's or later while the ones before that were mainly occupied to help rebuild Germany. Oops...

[Roy]

And this comes from the same person that is so obsessed with trying to prove me wrong on something, that he follows me around like a love sick puppy, trying to desperately prove me wrong on something, only to be shown that he is actually wrong again. Lets see if you'll answer the question this time:

Do the US bases currently in Japan, Italy, and Germany exist because we have treaties and agreements with these countries to allow them to stay? Yes or no?

Yes. I've never stated or implied otherwise. But that wasn't what you originally said.

Answer the question please or you could keep up with the snide comments that prove you are everything you hate.

I'm the one answering questions - you are the one providing snide comments and spittle-filled irrelevancies.

Was the US military invited into Germany, as opposed to retaining a presence following post-war occupation? Yes or no?

[Roy]

My dear sweet Roy, those bases were built or occupied in the 1950's or later while the ones before that were mainly occupied to help rebuild Germany. Oops...

Germany was still under Allied control well into the 1950s. Oops...

[lilpixieofterror]

Yes. I've never stated or implied otherwise. But that wasn't what you originally said.
I'm the one answering questions - you are the one providing snide comments and spittle-filled irrelevancies.

It's so adorable to watch you rant and rave and just keep showing you are everything you hate.

Was the US military invited into Germany, as opposed to retaining a presence following post-war occupation? Yes or no?

I asked first, Jorge Jr. Does the US maintain agreements with Germany, to allow those bases there? Yes or no?

[lilpixieofterror]

Germany was still under Allied control well into the 1950s. Oops...

My dear sweet Roy, many of those bases were built with German help and cooperation. Oops...

[Roy]

Do the US bases currently in Japan, Italy, and Germany exist because we have treaties and agreements with these countries to allow them to stay? Yes or no?

Yes.

Was the US military invited into Germany, as opposed to retaining a presence following post-war occupation? Yes or no?

I asked first, Jorge Jr. Does the US maintain agreements with Germany, to allow those bases there? Yes or no?

And I answered.

Was the US military invited into Germany, as opposed to retaining a presence following post-war occupation? Yes or no?

This will be my last post on this subject unless you answer. I don't have the time to engage your irrelevant ranting, nor do I need to.

[lilpixieofterror]

And I answered.

Was the US military invited into Germany, as opposed to retaining a presence following post-war occupation? Yes or no?

This will be my last post on this subject unless you answer. I don't have the time to engage your irrelevant ranting, nor do I need to.

And I answered you, Jorge Jr. These bases were set up, with German assistance. Do you deny this because it's right on the history page of their web site. Likewise, Sparko does have family that lives in Germany and their attitude are quite relevant to this point. What did he say about what the German people thought?

[Roy]

Was the US military invited into Germany, as opposed to retaining a presence following post-war occupation? Yes or no?

I asked first, Jorge Jr. Does the US maintain agreements with Germany, to allow those bases there? Yes or no?

And I answered.

Was the US military invited into Germany, as opposed to retaining a presence following post-war occupation? Yes or no?

This will be my last post on this subject unless you answer. I don't have the time to engage your irrelevant ranting, nor do I need to.

And I answered you, Jorge Jr.

Blatant lie. You did not.

I'm done here.