Pedophilia - The Next Taboo To Fall?

[Cow Poke]

Subservient is synonymous with subordinate....

At the risk of being labeled sexist, I'd bet that the majority of women suddenly choose to be "subservient" to their husband's authority when a burglar comes in the house at 3 AM, or a snake slithers across the kitchen floor....

[Mountain Man]

What I did note is that the language of "submit" is subservience language. It invites misunderstanding. If it were my religion, I'd look to shift the language. The reality is that most people I know who live the "traditional biblical marriage" have a marriage virtually identical to mine: two people, mutually loving, each contributing to the marriage out of their strengths and deferring to their partner in areas where the partner is stronger. So why needlessly introduce language that just muddies the waters and invites misunderstanding?

No, it doesn't. If people misunderstand it, it's because they want to misunderstand it, which I suspect is what you're doing out of a desire to disparage the Bible. You could use what you think is the clearest language in the world, and anybody who was sufficiently motivated could find a way to "misunderstand" it by ignoring context and employing false equivocation -- such as insisting that a word can only be understood negatively when it in fact has a range of meanings. I know you're of the opinion that the Bible can be interpreted in any way that someone wishes, even to the point of contradicting what it actually says, but that premise has always been self-evidently absurd simply because language doesn't work that way.

Subservient is synonymous with subordinate...

Yes... which is precisely why the Bible doesn't command the wife to be subservient to her husband, because she is not his subordinate!

[carpedm9587]

At the risk of being labeled sexist, I'd bet that the majority of women suddenly choose to be "subservient" to their husband's authority when a burglar comes in the house at 3 AM, or a snake slithers across the kitchen floor....

As I noted, CP, we each defer to our partner in their areas of strength. Men tend to be larger and stronger than women. However, if I was a 165-pound math teacher with enough upper body strength to peel a grape and my wife was a Navy SEAL, my guess is I would stay in bed and defer to her.

[Cow Poke]

As I noted, CP, we each defer to our partner in their areas of strength. Men tend to be larger and stronger than women. However, if I was a 165-pound math teacher with enough upper body strength to peel a grape and my wife was a Navy SEAL, my guess is I would stay in bed and defer to her.

Which, of course, is why I said "the majority of women".

[carpedm9587]

No, it doesn't. If people misunderstand it, it's because they want to misunderstand it, which I suspect is what you're doing out of a desire to disparage the Bible.

You do have a tendency to tell people what they think and what their motives are, MM. Unfortunately, you cannot see into my heart - only I can do that. You're wrong, but I suspect you're not going to believe that. I also have said nothing to disparage the bible. I have actually noted that whatever works for a marriage is fine with me (unless it is abusive) and that most people living a "traditional biblical marriage" have a marriage very similar to mine and are quite happy in it.

You could use what you think is the clearest language in the world, and anybody who was sufficiently motivated could find a way to "misunderstand" it by ignoring context and employing false equivocation -- such as insisting that a word can only be understood negatively when it in fact has a range of meanings.

You should conduct a poll, MM - and see how many people would say, "submit" is a word that implies subservience. If you poll across the spectrum, you might be surprised by the results. But I'll leave the dictionary to speak for itself. And if you do not see it as a "subservient" word, and think it is not conducive to misunderstanding, so be it. Keep using it. My opinion should matter little concerning the subject.

I know you're of the opinion that the Bible can be interpreted in any way that someone wishes, even to the point of contradicting what it actually says, but that premise has always been self-evidently absurd simply because language doesn't work that way.

Umm...I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion about what I believe about the bible. I don't recall discussing the matter with you or anyone else here? As for language - THAT would be an interesting discussion. I'm not entirely sure how you think language works, so perhaps you can explain that?

Yes... which is precisely why the Bible doesn't command the wife to be subservient to her husband, because she is not his subordinate!

I have no opinion on what the bible does and does not say - and I don't think I mentioned the bible except in the context of "traditional biblical relationship." I merely observed that the word "submit" is prone to misunderstanding, which is exacerbated by language like, "My wife submits to my authority as commanded by God." If you think otherwise, so be it. I'm not telling anyone what to say - just reflecting the effect I think the words are likely to have when they are used. You're not required to agree.

Look, if I see a man preaching on the corner, screaming, "You're all going to hell if you don't listen to me!" at the top of his lungs, I might approach them and say, "Don't you think you'd get more of an audience if you took a slightly less confrontational approach?" If they disagree and go on screaming, I'm going to go on my way. It's their preaching, not mine. Whether they get an audience with their approach will soon manifest itself. Likewise, if I find the word "submit" to be a word prone to misunderstanding, I'm going to suggest substituting a better word. If you don't agree - feel free to keep on using it. It's your message - not mine. It is, as they say, no skin off my nose. The degree of misunderstanding will manifest itself soon enough.

Then we can all argue about whether it was caused by the word or the intention of the listeners.

[carpedm9587]

Which, of course, is why I said "the majority of women".

True dat!

[ke7ejx]

At the risk of being labeled sexist, I'd bet that the majority of women suddenly choose to be "subservient" to their husband's authority when a burglar comes in the house at 3 AM, or a snake slithers across the kitchen floor....

Actually, I'm the one who sleeps with a gun by my headboard and I happen to like snakes.

[Mountain Man]

I merely observed that the word "submit" is prone to misunderstanding, which is exacerbated by language like, "My wife submits to my authority as commanded by God."

Why did you quote me and then put a period where I had a comma? This is a perfect example of what I meant when I said that people misunderstand because they want to misunderstand -- and, no, you're never going to convince me that your decision to truncate my statement and deceptively replace a comma with a period was not a deliberate attempt to twist my words to fit your argument. Here's my complete statement so you can read the whole thing in context:

"My wife submits to my authority as commanded by God, but she is not subservient to me. She brings many qualities to our relationship that I lack, and I'm a better man because of her love and support. I would not be who I am today if it wasn't for my wife, not because she's my servant but because she's my equal who chooses to obey God's command to submit to her husband."

But please, tell me again how this position "is prone to misunderstanding".

[rogue06]

Actually, I'm the one who sleeps with a gun by my headboard and I happen to like snakes.

I have a customized holster holding a 9mm on the backside of my headboard. In my old place I had several hidey-hole concealed weapon stashes throughout the house including one built into the side of the stairs leading up to the second floor.

[Cow Poke]

I have a customized holster holding a 9mm on the backside of my headboard. In my old place I had several hidey-hole concealed weapon stashes throughout the house including one built into the side of the stairs leading up to the second floor.

I've actually thought about putting a biometric gun safe in my pulpit!

speedvault-2.jpg

This one isn't biometric, but I read an article that says people over 60 should not use biometric, because fingerprints are less discernable as you get older.

Maybe it's time to resort to a life of crime!

Here's one of each...

gunvault.jpg

[carpedm9587]

Why did you quote me and then put a period where I had a comma?

The period is marking the end of MY sentence, MM, and punctuation is usually put within a quote.

This is a perfect example of what I meant when I said that people misunderstand because they want to misunderstand -- and, no, you're never going to convince me that your decision to truncate my statement and deceptively replace a comma with a period was not a deliberate attempt to twist my words to fit your argument.

OK. I won't try beyond the explanation above.

Here's my complete statement so you can read the whole thing in context:

"My wife submits to my authority as commanded by God, but she is not subservient to me. She brings many qualities to our relationship that I lack, and I'm a better man because of her love and support. I would not be who I am today if it wasn't for my wife, not because she's my servant but because she's my equal who chooses to obey God's command to submit to her husband."

But please, tell me again how this position "is prone to misunderstanding".

Ahhh... I can see the source of your angst. I took the first half of your sentence, because that was the language I was trying to emphasize, and omitted the second half of your sentence, leaving the impression that your position was "My wife submits to my authority as commanded by God" alone.

You are correct, and I apologize. I was so focused on the language of "submit," I did not realize that posting only half the sentence was substantially altering your over-all message. I will try to be more observant in the future. You are certainly justified in being irritated at me.

[Mountain Man]

You are correct, and I apologize. I was so focused on the language of "submit," I did not realize that posting only half the sentence was substantially altering your over-all message. I will try to be more observant in the future. You are certainly justified in being irritated at me.

The point is, you're doing the exact same thing with the Bible: quoting the part you think supports your argument and then ignoring everything else that doesn't. No, the Bible is not immune to this sort of abuse of language, but you can't fault the Bible for the that.

[carpedm9587]

The point is, you're doing the exact same thing with the Bible: quoting the part you think supports your argument and then ignoring everything else that doesn't. No, the Bible is not immune to this sort of abuse of language, but you can't fault the Bible for the that.

I'm not faulting anyone or anything, MM. I am merely pointing out that "submit" is a term prone to misinterpretation, and probably leading to a lot of disconnects. You are not obligated to agree.

Again, I apologize for inadvertently misrepresenting you. I would not like it if that were done to me, and I regret I did it to you.

[Mountain Man]

I am merely pointing out that "submit" is a term prone to misinterpretation...

Only by those who are intent on misinterpreting it and deliberately ignore the context.

[carpedm9587]

Only by those who are intent on misinterpreting it and deliberately ignore the context.

In the infamous words of Peter Falk, as you wish...