Problems with Heliocentrism

[HMS_Beagle]

Trollbat is still to stupid or dishonest to admit the satellite is still in orbit around the sun too and experiences the same forces the Earth does to maintain the solar elliptical orbit. In addition the satellite is also bound by the Earth's gravity and is in freefall around the Earth at the same time. The combined results look something like this animation of the Earth, moon, sun orbital interaction.

[HMS_Beagle]

The satellite only has the velocity given it by force when it is placed in orbit.

No Trollbat. It also has the velocity imparted to it by the Earth's orbit around the sun. That velocity vector caused by the sun's gravity doesn't magically vanish because some dishonest trollbat claims it does.

[HMS_Beagle]

No solution to the transfer of velocity by a force from the earth to the satellite here.

JM

The Earth doesn't have to transfer any force to keep the satellite in the same orbit as the Earth around the sun. The sun's gravity does that. The Earth's local gravity keeps the satellite captive to the Earth while both Earth and satellite orbit the sun.

Here's a simple thought experiment for the non-trolling honest readers. Imagine just the Earth alone in its elliptical orbit around the sun. Then imagine the Earth split in half right down the middle. Both halves would continue in the identical orbit.

Now imagine the whole Earth split into a 1/4 chunk and a 3/4 chunk. Both pieces would continue in the identical orbit.

Now imagine the whole Earth split into a 1/10 chunk and a 9/10 chunk. Both pieces would continue in the identical orbit.

Finally imagine the Earth splitting off a satellite-sized chunk while staying 99.9999+% the same mass. Both satellite and Earth would continue in identical orbits around the sun.

[JohnMartin]

JM-Breach of Newtons first Law - there is no mechanism within Newtonian mechanics to transfer a force from the table to the coin, nor from the earth to the satellite. Helio requires the satellite to change velocity to keep pace with the earth and yet Newtons first law says because no additional force is placed upon the satellite, the satellites velocity will not change. Therefore the Helio model requires the satellite not to continue its existing velocity, done without a force, in breach of Newton's first law.Breach of Newtons second Law - there is no mechanism within Newtonian mechanics to transfer a force from the table to the coin, nor from the earth to the satellite. Helio requires the satellite to change velocity to keep pace with the earth. Therefore the Helio model requires the satellite to accelerate without a force, in breach of Newton's second law. Helio requires a denial of F=ma. Breach of Newtons third Law - there is no mechanism within Newtonian mechanics to transfer a force from the table to the coin, nor from the earth to the satellite. Helio requires the satellite to change velocity to keep pace with the earth. Therefore the Helio model requires the satellite to accelerate without a force, in breach of Newton's third law. There is no force, therefore there should be no reaction as a satellite acceleration.

The coin is not orbiting the table. The gravity exerted on it from the table is significantly less than the gravity exerted on it by the floor. Hence the coin will not fly towards the table if the table is moved out of the way, it will continue to fall to the floor.

If the mass of the table was increased to being similar to that of the earth (thus dramatically increasing the amount of gravity it can exert), then the coin would move towards the table.

The coin would continue to move towards the table if the table was similar to the earth, but the coin would not move to the same point x. If the coin was tossed for t=t1 and the table moves at v, then x would move vt1. The coin would hit the earth at a place vt1 distant from x. This is so because the earth, or table cannot transfer the earths motion to the coin. The same principle applies to the satellite around the earth.

There is no mechanism within Newtonian mechanics that transfers a corresponding force to the satellite from the earth when the earth changes velocity in space, to keep the satellite moving with the earth around the sun.

Therefore

Helio is an invalid model.

JM

[JohnMartin]

The Earth doesn't have to transfer any force to keep the satellite in the same orbit as the Earth around the sun. The sun's gravity does that.

The same problem occurs with the sun transferring a corresponding force to the satellite. Neither the sun, nor the earth produce a force on the satellites corresponding to the earths change in velocity in space.

The Earth's local gravity keeps the satellite captive to the Earth while both Earth and satellite orbit the sun.

This is another myth. The satellites are placed in orbit with known parameters. Those parameters must change when the earth's velocity in space changes. When the earth's velocity changes, the satellites orbital parameters must also change to keep pace with the earth. Yet again, the satellites orbital parameters must also stay the same, relative to the earth for the satellite to retain its original orbital path around the earth. This simple contradiction shows just how bad the satellite problem is in Helio model. The problem simply cannot be resolved.

Here's a simple thought experiment for the non-trolling honest readers. Imagine just the Earth alone in its elliptical orbit around the sun. Then imagine the Earth split in half right down the middle. Both halves would continue in the identical orbit.

Now imagine the whole Earth split into a 1/4 chunk and a 3/4 chunk. Both pieces would continue in the identical orbit.

Now imagine the whole Earth split into a 1/10 chunk and a 9/10 chunk. Both pieces would continue in the identical orbit.

Finally imagine the Earth splitting off a satellite-sized chunk while staying 99.9999+% the same mass. Both satellite and Earth would continue in identical orbits around the sun.

So now the earth is divided into little pieces which all move together. The same problem applies to the many pieces. The force is not transferred from one piece to the other and so on.

The force doesn't exist.

Its an entirely fabricated force, based upon Newtonian, Helio imagination.

The force, or imagination of many parts moving together without a force, breaches Newtons laws multiple times.

Therefore

Helio is an invalid theory.

JM

[JohnMartin]

No Trollbat. It also has the velocity imparted to it by the Earth's orbit around the sun. That velocity vector caused by the sun's gravity doesn't magically vanish because some dishonest trollbat claims it does.

The velocity vector from the sun must change for the satellites velocity to change. How does this happen without the suns gravity force increasing on the satellite? The satellite at distance x miles has a y KN force caused by the sun's gravity. The earth at the same time, begins to move towards the sun, thereby increasing the earth's velocity. In this system there is no extra force from the sun, or earth to change the satellites velocity.

When the satellite is on the far side of the sun-earth system, the gravity force on the satellite from the sun doesn't change, and the gravity force from the earth decreases. Such a decrease in force on the satellite would decrease the satellites velocity. Such a satellite would drift away from the earth as the earth moved 3 million miles towards the sun.For the correct transfer force from either the earth, or sun to exist, the force would have to cause the satellite to move towards the sun, with the earth and to move with the corresponding orbital velocity around the sun, as the earth. This force does not exist.

When the satellite is on the sunward side of the earth in the sun-earth system, the gravity force doesn't change from the sun, and the gravity force from the earth increases. Such an increase in force on the satellite by the earth would increase the satellites velocity, relative to the earth and therefore throw the satellite out of its designed orbit. Such a satellite would fall into the earth as the earth moved 3 million miles towards the sun. For the correct transfer force from either the earth, or sun to exist, the force would have to cause the satellite to move towards the sun, with the earth and to move with the corresponding orbital velocity around the sun, as the earth. This force does not exist.

In both cases, there is no force from the sun, or the earth that transfers the corresponding force required to have the satellite move along with the earths elliptical orbit velocities during the year.

JM

[JohnMartin]

The same problem occurs with the sun transferring a corresponding force to the satellite. Neither the sun, nor the earth produce a force on the satellites corresponding to the earths change in velocity in space.



This is another myth. The satellites are placed in orbit with known parameters. Those parameters must change when the earth's velocity in space changes. When the earth's velocity changes, the satellites orbital parameters must also change to keep pace with the earth. Yet again, the satellites orbital parameters must also stay the same, relative to the earth for the satellite to retain its original orbital path around the earth. This simple contradiction shows just how bad the satellite problem is in Helio model. The problem simply cannot be resolved.



So now the earth is divided into little pieces which all move together. The same problem applies to the many pieces. The force is not transferred from one piece to the other and so on.

The force doesn't exist.

Its an entirely fabricated force, based upon Newtonian, Helio imagination.

The force, or imagination of many parts moving together without a force, breaches Newtons laws multiple times.

Therefore

Helio is an invalid theory.

JM

I'm rethinking this contradiction claim above. Even if my claim is false, the force required within the Helio system does not exist.

JM

[JohnMartin]

Trollbat is still to stupid or dishonest to admit the satellite is still in orbit around the sun too and experiences the same forces the Earth does to maintain the solar elliptical orbit. In addition the satellite is also bound by the Earth's gravity and is in freefall around the Earth at the same time. The combined results look something like this animation of the Earth, moon, sun orbital interaction.

The video is only more false Newtonian imagination that does not explain the required force transfer from either the earth, or sun, or moon to the satellite.

Don't ask questions. Everything just works out fine.

If the force doesn't exist, just imagine that everything moves along with everything else.

The Helio theory remains invalidated.

JM

[oxmixmudd]

No solution to the transfer of velocity by a force from the earth to the satellite here.

Coin 1 - no force - table v=0

Coin 2 - force - table v=v

Satellite - no force applied = earths relative v=v.

Helio is a failed model.

The problem remains unresolved.

JM

As I said - you are incompetent to declare Helio dead, because you can't figure out how the force of gravity from the sun, and that same force from the earth, in relative strength based on the mass differences and distance, coupled with the known behavior and gravity, that is 1/x² in terms of relative force propagation and d=Ct² in terms of distance (and its 2 derivatives for velocity and acceleration) solve ALL the 'problems' you raise.

It's that simple 'JM' - you are to stupid to recognize those formulae answer ALL the 'problems' you raise. If you had a typical HIGH SCHOOL algebra proficiency in math, you could figure it out. BUT YOU DON'T. You are just incompetent, incapable, and too ignorant to be able to run the numbers or pretend to be).

But you are also a troll, and refuse to even try to figure it out, or you already know how and are just pretending to be incapable.

To prove me wrong - act like a real human with half a brain and an ounce of personal pride (that is, actually try to figure out if gravity can solve the 'problems' you raise) rather than this stubborn dolt persona you present. Until you start acting like a real person would, you'll get nothing but this kind of response from me.


Jim

[Sparko]

John is getting boring.

Yawning.jpg

[HMS_Beagle]

This is another myth. The satellites are placed in orbit with known parameters. Those parameters must change when the earth's velocity in space changes. When the earth's velocity changes, the satellites orbital parameters must also change to keep pace with the earth. Yet again, the satellites orbital parameters must also stay the same, relative to the earth for the satellite to retain its original orbital path around the earth. This simple contradiction shows just how bad the satellite problem is in Helio model. The problem simply cannot be resolved.

Psst..hey moron... a satellite can be in orbit around two different objects and experience the gravitational force from both at the same time. The satellite can be locked into its earth orbit by Earth's gravity. At the same time the Earth-satellite pair can be in orbit around the sun.

That's exactly what happens with the Earth and moon, and the Earth/moon system and sun.

You never had a mother. You were hatched from a test-tube labeled FAILURE.

[oxmixmudd]

Don't ask questions. Everything just works out fine.

What is the virtue in asking questions if you are not willing to listen to the answers? So don't give us that "(poor me) I'm just asking questions" line. You could care less what the answers are, you don't even try to process the information given you in good will. If you aren't a troll, prove it by trying to understand the answers given, and be open to the possibility the answers given actually work. Otherwise, go find some sunshine.

Jim

[klaus54]

No solution to the transfer of velocity by a force from the earth to the satellite here.

Coin 1 - no force - table v=0

Coin 2 - force - table v=v

Satellite - no force applied = earths relative v=v.

Helio is a failed model.

The problem remains unresolved.

JM

For the 153rd time -- the force is GRAVITY!!!

{ETA: And the inertia of its pre-launch agreement with Earth's elliptical orbit. Also no air resistance in space to reduce the momentum of it had at orbit injection.}

[JohnMartin]

As I said - you are incompetent to declare Helio dead, because you can't figure out how the force of gravity from the sun, and that same force from the earth, in relative strength based on the mass differences and distance, coupled with the known behavior and gravity, that is 1/x² in terms of relative force propagation and d=Ct² in terms of distance (and its 2 derivatives for velocity and acceleration) solve ALL the 'problems' you raise.

Jim has lost the debate a long time ago. He hasn't even bothered finishing an argument he started recently. I'm still waiting for the second half of the argument Jim. The formuals don't help you either. It has been demonstrated many times on this thread that multiple forces are missing within the Helio model. The formulas do nothing when the forces are missing. Why bother with propagation, when the propagation is irrelevant to the problem? Jim?

It's that simple 'JM' - you are to stupid to recognize those formulae answer ALL the 'problems' you raise. If you had a typical HIGH SCHOOL algebra proficiency in math, you could figure it out. BUT YOU DON'T. You are just incompetent, incapable, and too ignorant to be able to run the numbers or pretend to be).

The formula does not provide the forces required.

But you are also a troll, and refuse to even try to figure it out, or you already know how and are just pretending to be incapable.

To prove me wrong - act like a real human with half a brain and an ounce of personal pride (that is, actually try to figure out if gravity can solve the 'problems' you raise) rather than this stubborn dolt persona you present. Until you start acting like a real person would, you'll get nothing but this kind of response from me.


Jim

And the missing forces are still missing.

JM

[JohnMartin]

Psst..hey moron... a satellite can be in orbit around two different objects and experience the gravitational force from both at the same time. The satellite can be locked into its earth orbit by Earth's gravity. At the same time the Earth-satellite pair can be in orbit around the sun.

That's exactly what happens with the Earth and moon, and the Earth/moon system and sun.

You never had a mother. You were hatched from a test-tube labeled FAILURE.

The earth moon system has the same problem as the orbiting satellites. Thanks for reminding me of how poor the Helio model is.

The problem reamains unanswered. Helio has been invalidated.

JM