Great New AronRa video, Evolution is a fact

[seer]

Even if they are in that niche by chance, then the outcome of them being in that niche is still not random, so the overall outcome is at best partially random.

Ok, so now it could be partially random? You agree that the beetle outcome will be different depending on the condition in niche? So the beetle finds itself in an environment by chance. The niche has particular selective forces like a condition where green beetles are better camouflaged - and that condition came by chance. And the birds that just happen to have a taste for beetles. Chance, chance, chance.

And I will ask again, did man have to develop the way he did?

One last thing. That definition of "random" you claim you quoted? You didn't quote it at all. You built it yourself by taking isolated sections from actual definitions, deleting the pieces that didn't fit your requirements. For example, the first part of your "definition" is from this:
_____proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern

but you dishonestly deleted the bit about patterns. So even if evolution/natural selection were random according to your definition - which it isn't - it still wouldn't be random according to every one else's definition.

I was asked what "I" meant by random.

[seer]

Yup. But not random, because of #4. Or are you claiming that the interaction between the organism and environment is random?

I'm saying that the outcome is random because it is by chance that the creature finds itself in a particular niche, with particular selective forces. If it found itself in a different niche with different selective forces the outcome would be different. Again, like our beetle example.

[Roy]

Ok, so now it could be partially random?

And partially non-random. Which you have ignored. Again.

Roy

[JonF]

I'm saying that the outcome is random because it is by chance that the creature finds itself in a particular niche, with particular selective forces. If it found itself in a different niche with different selective forces the outcome would be different. Again, like our beetle example

Last response, since you are just repeating your claims without addressing my original point. The interaction between the selective forces and the organism is not random.

[seer]

And partially non-random. Which you have ignored. Again.

Roy

But you do agree that outcomes are random depending on the niche the organism happens to find itself in?

[seer]

Last response, since you are just repeating your claims without addressing my original point. The interaction between the selective forces and the organism is not random.

And wouldn't the outcomes shaped by the selective forces be different depending on the random mutations that these forces had to work with? And I will ask again, did we have to evolved as we did? Are we not, in the end, just lucky to happen to find ourselves in various niches over time that formed us the way they did?

[Roy]

And partially non-random. Which you have ignored. Again.

But you do agree that outcomes are random depending on the niche the organism happens to find itself in?

No. They are partially non-random. Which you have ignored. Again.

Roy

[seer]

No. They are partially non-random. Which you have ignored. Again.

Roy

Don't the outcomes depend niche they find themselves in? That different niches would cause different results, like with our beetles?

[Roy]

Don't the outcomes depend niche they find themselves in? That different niches would cause different results, like with our beetles?

Yes, but they also depend on the non-random effects of natural selection within that niche. Which you have ignored. Again.

Roy

[seer]

Yes, but they also depend on the non-random effects of natural selection within that niche. Which you have ignored. Again.

Roy

But the effects would be random because the niches themselves have differing selective forces. In one niche the brown beetle survives, and a slightly different niche the green beetle survives. So we have random outcomes. I just do see where chance is taken out of the picture.

[klaus54]

Just finished reading Miller's immeasurably horrid explanation on the meaning of "random". Miller should stick to the 'specialty' that he is good at - promoting the lies of Evolution - instead of trying to speak on matters that he sucks at - basically everything else outside of that 'specialty'.

Jorge

Nothing like a deep analysis and instructive critique.

K54

[Roy]

But the effects would be random because the niches themselves have differing selective forces.

No, they would be at least partially non-random because of the non-random effects of natural selection within the niches. Which you have ignored. Again.

Roy

[klaus54]

But the effects would be random because the niches themselves have differing selective forces. In one niche the brown beetle survives, and a slightly different niche the green beetle survives. So we have random outcomes. I just do see where chance is taken out of the picture.

How does creationism take "chance out of the picture"??

Once a genetic system exists, and there are changing environments, then niches change, and organisms adapt or go extinct. And if they do adapt, natural selection will generate a different percentage of various alleles (Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium).

This happens whether or not primitive (or even complex!) organisms were specially created.

Earth's conditions will change by mantle convection, meteor impacts, amount of O2 in the oceans and atmosphere, climate change due to Milankovic cycles or eccentricity of Earth's orbit or volcanic activity...

I don't get your point. As a creationist, do you believe the everything life form and mountain range and ocean and lake was planned in advance??

K54

[klaus54]

How does creationism take "chance out of the picture"??

Once a genetic system exists, and there are changing environments, then niches change, and organisms adapt or go extinct. And if they do adapt, natural selection will generate a different percentage of various alleles (Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium).

This happens whether or not primitive (or even complex!) organisms were specially created.

Earth's conditions will change by mantle convection, meteor impacts, amount of O2 in the oceans and atmosphere, climate change due to Milankovic cycles or eccentricity of Earth's orbit or volcanic activity...

I don't get your point. As a creationist, do you believe the everything life form and mountain range and ocean and lake was planned in advance??

K54

P.S. And about the creation of YOU by an egg on a particular month and one of billions of sperm?

[phank]

I guess since seer's life is largely composed of unpredictable events beyond his control, there are no non-random facets to anything he does.

I still say it's Morton's Demon. Letting any aspect of nature be non-random undermines seer's god.