Jorge's opportunity to debate specific data

[oxmixmudd]

Where will you have me look? At the Panda's Thumb website? At the Infidels website? At TalkOrigins?
Yeah, I'm sure that I will get the "honest, gospel truth" about this incident at those sites. NOT!!!

Direct me to Sarfati's website. Show me where he has been made aware of this and
where he has acknowledged his error yet done nothing to correct it - take me there
and I will personally send a message to Sarfati requesting an explanation.
Heck, I'll even copy you on the message that I send him. Come on, O-Mudd - man up!

Until you do that, you are merely practicing wickedness, O-Mudd.

Jorge

Jorge, I think you are becoming almost frantic here. And you constant protests of what you will do if any wrongdoing can be PROVED is sounding rather Hollow. You have no intention of doing anything. IF you cared, the evidence is all over the place. Just go checkout a copy of Refuting Compromise and find where he goes through the SNR argument. IIRC it's there. Then go read the ONLINE article he's quoting from. It's all there in B&W. Same with the Sagan quote. Seriously, you can't look it up on google books and read the pages involved (I think maybe 5 or 6, but some of those are photographic plates you can skip)

I mean, IF YOUR CARED, this is trivial. And trying to demonize me??? Good grief. I'm just the messenger. Your pals are the ones pulling quotes out of context.

Seriously Jorge! You've overestimated your memory of history and managed to 'remember' what didn't exist concerning Sylas. When it was quite clear Sylas's own memory of his own life didn't jive with your own, you BLAMED HIM. Then when proof was brought out YOUR memory was flawed, you STILL refused to offer any sort of apology or admit you'd made a mistake. Now in this thread you've been brought to task over the issue of distorting other peoples words and we've seen examples of you doing it, you quoting people who do it, you defending people who do it and acting as if it is everyone else's fault, and you refusing to look and see if in fact they did what they are accused of doing!

When do you step back and say enough is enough? Does your Christian faith not inform you morally in any observable manner over these kinds of issues? Can you only discern right and wrong based on rules or stock answers? Can you not figure out these events are NOT reflecting well on who you are as a man, Christian or not? Do you want to present yourself as the sort of person I've just described? I appeal to the bit of honesty I know must be in there somewhere. Where is the man that fell down before Christ repentant and conscious of his own sin an unworthiness of Christ's sacrifice. This is NOT that person. GO FIND HIM!



Jim

[oxmixmudd]

Taking this at face value without any verification, it seems to me that DAVIES (not Sarfati) would be the guilty party with Sarfati committing the mistake of not verifying his sources. That seems to clearly be what Setterfield is (allegedly) here saying. Even still, was Sarfati informed of the truth? Did Sarfati acknowledge this? Did Sarfati disregard the evidence and refuse to make any needed corrections? Otherwise, you people are just blowing smoke.

Huff and puff and kick and yell all you want, you're not going to 'win' here.
Why? Because I stand on the side of truth and honesty, that's why.

Jorge

Sarfati was a 2300+ Chess master. He still holds a 2250 rank. He plays multiple simultaneous chess games blindfolded. This is not a person that makes careless tactical errors or who 'forgets' to check his sources!


Give it a break!

[Jorge]

Jorge comes to his inability to correct a mistake honestly. The leading YEC organizations are notoriously slow to do so and will continue to repeat terminally rebutted claims (PRATTs) for decades.

For instance, look at the nonsensical assertion about Bombardier Beetles that still makes the rounds. Back in the 1970s Duane Gish was declaring that the hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone in Bombardier Beetles would spontaneously explode unless an inhibitor is added to prevent the explosion when Drs. William Thwaites and Frank Awbrey of San Diego State University invited Gish to debate this assertion publicly in the Spring of 78.

They mixed hydrogen peroxide and hydroquinone solutions together. There was no explosion; the mixture slowly turned brown as they oxidized. Gish then claimed that he had mistranslated the original German reference mistaking the German word for "unstable" for "explosive" -- yet he continued to make the same disproven claim in his debates after this. And it still appears on AnswersinGenesis' (AiG) website: The Amazing Bombardier Beetle

Another one that remains on their website is the bizarre claim about the "baboon dog"

Source: Is Your Dog Some Kind of Degenerate Mutant?

Short Spine

In this mutant, the entire backbone of the dog is shortened, but the legs and skull are normal. Such mutations kill most dogs, with an interesting exception being the female Baboon dog. The male Baboon dog dies before reaching maturity, so it should be obvious that this breed has not got much going for it.

Source

© Copyright Original Source

Many people (including at least one YEC that I'm aware of) have repeatedly requested that AiG support that claim (as if there could be any support for the existence of a dog species where the males die before sexual maturity) but it remains on their website for decades unchanged.

There are numerous other examples but these two suffice in making the point.

Once again the double-standard dishonesty of TEs comes shining through.

To begin with, I would never accept at face value the stories that you tell here. There's a stench of untruthfulness of these stories as you report them. They may be true, but I won't rule based on your word alone.

Also, if you haven't noticed this thread has degraded into a witch-hunt of sorts where you people are doing nothing more than trying to dig up Urban Myths about "how dishonest Creationists are" - ad hominem at its worst. I said it before and I'll repeat it: I have never met a single Biblical Creationist that operates this way. Mistakes/errors? - yes. Deliberate? - no.

Is it POSSIBLE that there may have been instances of deliberate lying? Yes, of course it's possible. But those would be the extremely rare exception, not the rule as you clowns are claiming. And I have already clearly stated what my position would be in those rare cases. BOTTOM LINE: your case has as much of a chance as a snowball vacationing in Hell.

But let's not forget YOUR side. Have you by any chance forgotten - if you have I will now remind you - of the deliberate lies and frauds committed by Evolutionists? It is a matter of record that after being discovered as lies/frauds there were numerous requests to get the material out of the textbooks yet decades later, there they were - the same lies and frauds! This doesn't even include the numerous other instances of fabricated data, cheating, concocted just-so stories and persecution of people for not accepting the reigning ideological dogma (Evolutionism). I mean, many in your camp should be in the cell adjacent to Bernie Madoff's.

Why not talk about those, you double-standard klutz? Don't be so quick to condemn your opposition of a crime that your position has committed on countless occasions. Just stay quiet - you'll appear to be smarter and more honest that way.

Jorge

[Jorge]

Sarfati was a 2300+ Chess master. He still holds a 2250 rank. He plays multiple simultaneous chess games blindfolded. This is not a person that makes careless tactical errors or who 'forgets' to check his sources!

Give it a break!

You have GOT to be kidding me !!!!!!!

In all my years I've never seen the level of over-reaching as you just demonstrated, O-Mudd.
I've got to ask, how do you manage to sleep at night?
I know that I wouldn't be able to if I did such things.

I mean, I'm still shaking my head. Do you think that having a high IQ makes a person immune from oversights, mistakes, blunders, ...?

Would you get freagin' REAL !!!!??? WOW !!!

Jorge

[klaus54]

You have GOT to be kidding me !!!!!!!

In all my years I've never seen the level of over-reaching as you just demonstrated, O-Mudd.
I've got to ask, how do you manage to sleep at night?
I know that I wouldn't be able to if I did such things.

I mean, I'm still shaking my head. Do you think that having a high IQ makes a person immune from oversights, mistakes, blunders, ...?

Would you get freagin' REAL !!!!??? WOW !!!

Jorge

Could you kindly point out any flaw in Jim's example?

How do you sleep at night?

K54

[HMS_Beagle]

Huff and puff and kick and yell all you want, you're not going to 'win' here.
Why?

Because you're a scientifically ignorant confirmed liar with jello for a spine who's more interested in protecting his own ego than discussing scientific evidence.

That's why.

Any other questions?

[Roy]

To begin with, I would never accept at face value the stories that you tell here.

Of course not. But since several people have linked to the original texts which are still available on various creationist websites, there's no need to accept anything. The source and the mined quote can be compared side-by-side.

Also, if you haven't noticed this thread has degraded into a witch-hunt of sorts where you people are doing nothing more than trying to dig up Urban Myths about "how dishonest Creationists are" - ad hominem at its worst.

Posting links to YEC articles is not digging up urban myths.

I said it before and I'll repeat it: I have never met a single Biblical Creationist that operates this way. Mistakes/errors? - yes. Deliberate? - no.

Perhaps some-one could buy Jorge a mirror.

Is it POSSIBLE that there may have been instances of deliberate lying? Yes, of course it's possible. But those would be the extremely rare exception, not the rule as you clowns are claiming. And I have already clearly stated what my position would be in those rare cases.

Yup, he did: "Direct me to Sarfati's website. Show me where he has been made aware of this and where he has acknowledged his error yet done nothing to correct it - take me there and I will personally send a message to Sarfati requesting an explanation.Heck, I'll even copy you on the message that I send him. Come on, O-Mudd - man up!"

Jorge has since been directed to Sarfati's website, where it can be seen that Sarfati has done nothing to correct the error. Will Jorge "man up" and send a personal message to Sarfati, or will Jorge close his eyes and stick his testicles in his ears?

Roy

[oxmixmudd]

You have GOT to be kidding me !!!!!!!

In all my years I've never seen the level of over-reaching as you just demonstrated, O-Mudd.
I've got to ask, how do you manage to sleep at night?
I know that I wouldn't be able to if I did such things.

I mean, I'm still shaking my head. Do you think that having a high IQ makes a person immune from oversights, mistakes, blunders, ...?

Would you get freagin' REAL !!!!??? WOW !!!

Jorge

A 'mistake' is not something you leave up on a website for 10 years+ and put in book after book. (I'm surprised Roland hasn't chimed in yet. I know he talked to Sarfati about something like this, if it wasn't this specific quote)

And I'm not talking about his IQ. I'm talking about his capacity for MEMORY and ATTENTION TO DETAIL. One does not get to be 2300+ and play blindfolded without significantly above average capacity in both.

Could he have made a mistake? Yes. But if he is the man of integrity you act like he is, it would be in ONE book, FIRST EDITION ONLY, and would long since have disappeared from the various creation websites where it can be found. Further, it is very likely we would have dozens of people who contacted him who could vouch for the fact that when they went to him, he was shocked and immediately moved to retract the statement where he had the power to do so.

NONE of that exists.


Jim

[klaus54]

Jorge has created a new logical fallacy, Musae apoplexis.

K54

P.S. Ex illis disputationibus quibus Apoplexia magna Bloviatus.

[Truthseeker]

You have GOT to be kidding me !!!!!!!

In all my years I've never seen the level of over-reaching as you just demonstrated, O-Mudd.
I've got to ask, how do you manage to sleep at night?

I know that I wouldn't be able to if I did such things.

First, you say that Oxmixy is kidding. Next he is over-reaching. I am puzzled. Do you mean he went too far kidding you? I guess not, because you then say that you've got to ask whether Oxmixy could sleep at night. Also, you next say YOU would not be able to sleep at night. Oh, yeah, maybe you were sleep deprived when you wrote that post? Well, I sleep fine at night even though I kid around from time to time. To be sure, usually I immediately indicate that I had been kidding. Say, Oxmixy didn't say he was kidding, did he? Nah, not that I recall. Maybe you would not have been so outraged had he immediately said he was kidding . . . nah, Oxmixy seemed too serious to be kidding.

I mean, I'm still shaking my head. Do you think that having a high IQ makes a person immune from oversights, mistakes, blunders, ...?

Would you get freagin' REAL !!!!??? WOW !!!

Jorge

I do find it hard to believe someone like Sarfati would be unable to own up to mistakes, but politicians are like that. One rule they usually follow is, Never admit you screwed up. Oh, right, you're going to say Sarfati is not like that. Oh, well.

[Jorge]

Jorge, I think you are becoming almost frantic here. And you constant protests of what you will do if any wrongdoing can be PROVED is sounding rather Hollow. You have no intention of doing anything. IF you cared, the evidence is all over the place. Just go checkout a copy of Refuting Compromise and find where he goes through the SNR argument. IIRC it's there. Then go read the ONLINE article he's quoting from. It's all there in B&W. Same with the Sagan quote. Seriously, you can't look it up on google books and read the pages involved (I think maybe 5 or 6, but some of those are photographic plates you can skip)

I mean, IF YOUR CARED, this is trivial. And trying to demonize me??? Good grief. I'm just the messenger. Your pals are the ones pulling quotes out of context.

Seriously Jorge! You've overestimated your memory of history and managed to 'remember' what didn't exist concerning Sylas. When it was quite clear Sylas's own memory of his own life didn't jive with your own, you BLAMED HIM. Then when proof was brought out YOUR memory was flawed, you STILL refused to offer any sort of apology or admit you'd made a mistake. Now in this thread you've been brought to task over the issue of distorting other peoples words and we've seen examples of you doing it, you quoting people who do it, you defending people who do it and acting as if it is everyone else's fault, and you refusing to look and see if in fact they did what they are accused of doing!

When do you step back and say enough is enough? Does your Christian faith not inform you morally in any observable manner over these kinds of issues? Can you only discern right and wrong based on rules or stock answers? Can you not figure out these events are NOT reflecting well on who you are as a man, Christian or not? Do you want to present yourself as the sort of person I've just described? I appeal to the bit of honesty I know must be in there somewhere. Where is the man that fell down before Christ repentant and conscious of his own sin an unworthiness of Christ's sacrifice. This is NOT that person. GO FIND HIM!

Jim

[sigh ...]

I can only repeat - with some highlighting for effect - what I wrote before:

Direct me to Sarfati's website. Show me where he has been made aware of this and
where he has acknowledged his error yet done nothing to correct it - take me there
and I will personally send a message to Sarfati requesting an explanation.
Heck, I'll even copy you on the message that I send him.


Jorge

[Jorge]

Any other questions?

Yeah, one more question : How much longer for you to Evolve past the slime stage?

Jorge

[Jorge]

Of course not. But since several people have linked to the original texts which are still available on various creationist websites, there's no need to accept anything. The source and the mined quote can be compared side-by-side.Posting links to YEC articles is not digging up urban myths. Perhaps some-one could buy Jorge a mirror.Yup, he did: "Direct me to Sarfati's website. Show me where he has been made aware of this and where he has acknowledged his error yet done nothing to correct it - take me there and I will personally send a message to Sarfati requesting an explanation.Heck, I'll even copy you on the message that I send him. Come on, O-Mudd - man up!"

Jorge has since been directed to Sarfati's website, where it can be seen that Sarfati has done nothing to correct the error. Will Jorge "man up" and send a personal message to Sarfati, or will Jorge close his eyes and stick his testicles in his ears?

Roy

Empty, childish irrationality mixed in with a good measure of ad hominem.
You're a total waste of flesh and bones, Roy.
Errr, useful maybe as compost material.

Jorge

[oxmixmudd]

[sigh ...]

I can only repeat - with some highlighting for effect - what I wrote before:

Direct me to Sarfati's website. Show me where he has been made aware of this and
where he has acknowledged his error yet done nothing to correct it - take me there
and I will personally send a message to Sarfati requesting an explanation.
Heck, I'll even copy you on the message that I send him.


Jorge

This is evasion jorge. Some of the letters to Sarfati are documented in the links provided. The quote has been used by him in his books. It was and may still be on AIGs website, though not long after some of the people I told about contacted them they finally but halfheartedly acknowledged the elimination of the phrase 'is solved'. Roy posted everything you need to validate this. You have put up a stiff barrier (Sarfati's website!!) Blah blah. Its in his books for pity sake! YOU HAVE ALL YOU NEED AS IT STANDS.

Further, the issue of Sarfati is raised as an example of the prevalence of misquoting as it relates to the article YOU quoted in this thread and as it relates to the deceptive use of a qoute by Sagan from the book comets in an attempt to support your contention no evidence for the Oort cloud exists.

Jim

[Jorge]

First, you say that Oxmixy is kidding. Next he is over-reaching. I am puzzled. Do you mean he went too far kidding you? I guess not, because you then say that you've got to ask whether Oxmixy could sleep at night. Also, you next say YOU would not be able to sleep at night. Oh, yeah, maybe you were sleep deprived when you wrote that post? Well, I sleep fine at night even though I kid around from time to time. To be sure, usually I immediately indicate that I had been kidding. Say, Oxmixy didn't say he was kidding, did he? Nah, not that I recall. Maybe you would not have been so outraged had he immediately said he was kidding . . . nah, Oxmixy seemed too serious to be kidding.


I do find it hard to believe someone like Sarfati would be unable to own up to mistakes, but politicians are like that. One rule they usually follow is, Never admit you screwed up. Oh, right, you're going to say Sarfati is not like that. Oh, well.

Huh?

Are you well? Did you remember to take your meds?

I say these things because your post above sounds like the ramblings of a sick mind.

Here's what I'm going to do (since my curiosity has been stirred): I am going to email Sarfati today on this matter to see what he says. I will ask for his permission to share with you clowns his response to me. That's what I'm going to do.

On YOUR end (all of you), you will form a line and one by one apologize if I'm proven right.

Of course, if I was wrong then I will apologize to all of you. We will soon see who man's up and who turns tail like a sissy.

EDITED TO ADD : I have just sent the email request to Dr. Sarfati (7:48 AM ET USA, June 4, 2014).

Jorge