Originally posted by Jim B.
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The Nature of Time: A-Theory vs. B-Theory
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostThey're saying that the past plus the laws of nature necessitate the future, but even so, we are still "free" to act on our wills and desires. So they are metaphysical determinists.
My form of compatibilism allows for the 'potential of free will decisions.'
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo, not necessarily free to act on your wills and desires without constraints. Does not fit the metaphysical by definition. I do not think Daniel Dennett would admit appealing to the metaphysical to justify his conclusions concerning compatibilism. I do not totally agree with Dennett who only allows 'wiggle room' in the decision making process and not truly free will. I do not know many, but maybe there are a few Compatibilists, in general that consider the decisions people make to be knowledgeable of the degree of their free will prior to when they make decisions including those involving our 'wills? and desires.'
My form of compatibilism allows for the 'potential of free will decisions.'
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Originally posted by JimL View PostNo, it's just that a variety of options tells us nothing about whether the option chosen is freely chosen or not.
Why call it limited then, what's the limiting factor? I don't see how the variability of decisions/choices available says anything about whether the decsion/choice made is a free one. But the B-theory doesn't allow for any decision/choices because the future is fixed, it's as real as the past and not open to change. How do you fit free will of any sort into a closed future.
And how do you get around the physics?Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-17-2020, 07:42 PM.
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Originally posted by Jim B. View PostCompatibilism actually is a form of metaphysical determinism. Compatibilists believe that all of our actions are determined by the past but that we have circumstantial freedom, ie we are free to act on our wills and desires. They believe we have the kind of freedom that makes us fit subjects for moral responsibility, but they don't think we are really free, that we could have done otherwise. So it could be a clockwork universe as BP is saying and one could still be a compatibilist.
Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are mutually compatible and that it is possible to believe in both without being logically inconsistent.[1]
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostYour arguing a hypothetical conclusion to justify hard determinism.
The fact that there are a variety of options in the decision making process and a degree of unpredictability in the outcomes of the decisions does lead to the possibility and does not preclude the possibility of limited free will.
Our will is obviously limited by many factors, most apparent is NAtural Law, Cultural and peer conditioning, evolutionary safe guards for our safety and the preservation of the species. the chain of cause and effect events that lead to the decision in question. None of this precludes a degree of free will in our decision making process.
I do not get around physics at all. We are no longer in a science world of Newtonian mechanistic clock work hard deterministic physics.Last edited by JimL; 05-17-2020, 08:43 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostI'm not trying to justify anything shunya, I'm trying to make sense of the arguments.
Explain how a variety of options has anything to do with the ability to will any but one of those option. And simply stating that there is a degree of unpredictability of outcomes doesn't explain how the outcome was the result of a free choice.
You're simply making assertions, shunya. You're not supporting them.
But you are still not supporting your assertions.
You need to read those that support variations of Compatabilism like Danial Dennett, and the published material in the reference I cited: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIt is evidence of the possibility of a limited free will.
Yes I am. Remember I am only supporting the possibility of limited free will. It is you taking a hard line. You have absolutely no evidence for hard determinism and no free will.
You need to read those that support variations of Compatabilism like Danial Dennett, and the published material in the reference I cited: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism
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Originally posted by JimL View PostSo, I ask you to explain how your evidence is actual evidence of free will, or the possibility of free will, and your answer is simply another assertion that it is evidence?
I understand you support the possibility of limited free will, I support the possibility of free will as well, but I don't see how your argument is actually defending that support.
Well, that's why I'm asking you. Being that you've already studied it, it shouldn't be that difficult to give a concise explanation of how free will fits into the big picture.
Your literate read the references. Do your own homework. I do not spoon feed.
You have still failed to provide references that support your case, and you have failed to provide them. Actually this thread is a perpetual groundhog thread, and all this has been covered many times before.
Happy Ground Hog Day!!!!!Last edited by shunyadragon; 05-17-2020, 09:33 PM.
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I subscribe to the process thought of Alfred North Whitehead, Charles Hartshorne, etc., so that makes me an A-theorist by default. My position is wholly philosophical; I'll leave the scientific arguments to those more knowledgeable than me.
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostExcept i would so clearly choose chocolate. (Ben and Jerry's chocolate fudge brownie, to be specific).
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sigh. Shuny and JimL have joined the thread with their same old nonsense. This thread has been destroyed. I see Seer started a new thread on the B-Theory so I guess I will head over there. JimL and Shuny, please leave that one alone. Please.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postsigh. Shuny and JimL have joined the thread with their same old nonsense. This thread has been destroyed. I see Seer started a new thread on the B-Theory so I guess I will head over there. JimL and Shuny, please leave that one alone. Please.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostNo, not necessarily free to act on your wills and desires without constraints. Does not fit the metaphysical by definition. I do not think Daniel Dennett would admit appealing to the metaphysical to justify his conclusions concerning compatibilism. I do not totally agree with Dennett who only allows 'wiggle room' in the decision making process and not truly free will. I do not know many, but maybe there are a few Compatibilists, in general that consider the decisions people make to be knowledgeable of the degree of their free will prior to when they make decisions including those involving our 'wills? and desires.'
My form of compatibilism allows for the 'potential of free will decisions.'
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAgain not so by definition and by those who propose compatibilism.
Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are mutually compatible and that it is possible to believe in both without being logically inconsistent.[1]
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