Originally posted by TheLurch
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The book Darwin Devolves
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Originally posted by Seeker View PostBut isn't loss more or less the equivalent of ''breaking''? If you said ''gain'', it would be one thing, but you said ''loss''. Now I'm confused.Last edited by shunyadragon; 06-18-2019, 07:17 AM.
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Originally posted by Seeker View PostBut isn't loss more or less the equivalent of ''breaking''? If you said ''gain'', it would be one thing, but you said ''loss''. Now I'm confused.
In other words, the polar bear is likely to tell us little about evolution in general, while specifically confirming what we already know about the fate of useless genes.
That's point 1. Point 2 is the issue of why Behe chose this example. It could be that Behe, like me, simply wasn't paying careful attention and didn't realize this issue with his argument. Or it could be that Behe just cared about making his argument look good, and cherry picked this example specifically because he knew it would. Given that Behe has, in the past, gone out of his way to ignore counter arguments, play down various data, etc. all to keep promoting his arguments, my suspicion is that it's the latter."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostIt would also be an example of Behe cherry picking his example to make his case look good.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostPart of the fallacy here is the assumption that all "breaking" is unbeneficial "loss."
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, yes, that's part of Behe's argument, that breaking genes can provide a selective advantage. I don't think anyone is arguing against that, here.
Blessings,
Lee
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThan there is not problem with the "breaking" of genes is a part of the natural evolutionary process.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostThough the APOB gene in the polar bear was what Behe focused on, to provide an advantage in a high-fat diet, as I recall."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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A quote from "Debating Darwin's Doubt", which has relevance to this discussion:
The quote is in reference to this paper.
And a quote from the key points of the paper: "Despite buffering effects, the fitness distribution of mutations at the protein level, and for whole organisms, is such that most of the mutations are either neutral or deleterious. This results in the rapid and irreversible non-functionalization of proteins that accumulate mutations under no selection." And we may note that selection will tend to remove deleterious mutations.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostA quote from "Debating Darwin's Doubt", which has relevance to this discussion:
The quote is in reference to this paper.
And a quote from the key points of the paper: "Despite buffering effects, the fitness distribution of mutations at the protein level, and for whole organisms, is such that most of the mutations are either neutral or deleterious. This results in the rapid and irreversible non-functionalization of proteins that accumulate mutations under no selection." And we may note that selection will tend to remove deleterious mutations.
Blessings,
Lee
Moreover, the selection process takes place at a higher level -- does it improve or impair an organism's chances to survive, reproduce and leave progeny. If the latter then over time they will be increasingly weeded out as those without the mutation out reproduce them. Likewise if the mutation improves their chances then they will out produce those without it.
This is basic evolutionary theory and has been demonstrated repeatedly.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostA quote from "Debating Darwin's Doubt", which has relevance to this discussion:
The quote is in reference to this paper.
And a quote from the key points of the paper: "Despite buffering effects, the fitness distribution of mutations at the protein level, and for whole organisms, is such that most of the mutations are either neutral or deleterious. This results in the rapid and irreversible non-functionalization of proteins that accumulate mutations under no selection." And we may note that selection will tend to remove deleterious mutations.
Blessings,
LeeLast edited by shunyadragon; 03-22-2020, 07:01 AM.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostConsidering that most mutations are already neutral to then say that most are either neutral or deleterious is effectively meaningless. It would in fact be just as accurate to say that most are either neutral or beneficial.
Moreover, the selection process takes place at a higher level -- does it improve or impair an organism's chances to survive, reproduce and leave progeny. If the latter then over time they will be increasingly weeded out as those without the mutation out reproduce them. Likewise if the mutation improves their chances then they will out produce those without it.
This is basic evolutionary theory and has been demonstrated repeatedly."Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostConsidering that most mutations are already neutral to then say that most are either neutral or deleterious is effectively meaningless. It would in fact be just as accurate to say that most are either neutral or beneficial.
Moreover, the selection process takes place at a higher level -- does it improve or impair an organism's chances to survive, reproduce and leave progeny. If the latter then over time they will be increasingly weeded out as those without the mutation out reproduce them. Likewise if the mutation improves their chances then they will out produce those without it.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostAlso, many changes in duplicated genes occur in their regulatory DNA, not in their protein coding sequence.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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