Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Optimized amino acids
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostIn evolution the anecdotal "just-right," nor even "right," are subjective, and have no productive meaning nor context in a scientific argument for falsification of a hypothesis.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostWhy? What prevents there having been evolution of the set of amino acids since LUCA that either
- led to a lineage that went extinct
- led to a lineage that hasn't yet been examined
- led to a lineage that has been examined, but you aren't aware of?
So, there is nothing that prevents your hypothetical scenario from being discovered.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostCombined reply to two posts.
No, I'm not.
Lee claimed he wanted to hear more about "amino acid systems changing since the last common ancestor" - which includes changes to the genetic code as well as changes to the amino acid set.
Here are the relevant quotes.
Originally posted by lee_merrillThat's what I mean when I say "highly conserved", we don't see amino acid sets evolving, which indicates that change in this area is fatal to the organism.
Originally posted by TheLurchWe do see amino acid systems changing since the last common ancestor, often through horizontal gene transfer.
Originally posted by lee_merrillI would be interested to hear more.
Originally posted by RoyYou already did, on page three of this thread.
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Originally posted by The Barbarian View PostOriginally posted by DaveBThere are many amino acids found on the earth. Perhaps hundreds.
The question is why are the relatively few used optimal (in the properties that the researchers tested for)?
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post. . . and I responded that set up to 22 has evolved since and exist today. One of the article I cited described possible alternate amino acid sets. The reason other sets did not survive natural selection and evolve is explained in the articles cited. One of the reasons is that the present set of 20 was only optimal set to survive is the most efficient energy metabolism best suited to life. The evolution from dependent energy sources to independent metabolism of energy for life required the eventual dominant set of twenty.
This is not a way to conduct a discussion.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostAnd as I recall I responded to your posts, and got a response that said "What are your qualifications to critique this research?"
This is not a way to conduct a discussion.
Blessings,
Lee
I have emphasized citing peer reviewed scientific articles to support my arguments, and you need to do the same.
In contrast The Lurch is far more qualified than both of us, and we share the same perspective, and he also has provided references.Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-13-2019, 10:47 PM.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostWell, let's not change the subject! But fish shapes could conceivably evolve, amino acid sets, not so much.
Blessings,
Lee
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Originally posted by DaveBYou simply don't have any evidence that there were life forms that used alternative sets of amino acids.Any evolution of the set of amino acids from among other potential sets would have happened before the so-called LUCA...
- led to a lineage that went extinct
- led to a lineage that hasn't yet been examined
- led to a lineage that has been examined, but you aren't aware of?
So, there is nothing that prevents your hypothetical scenario from being discovered.[/QUOTE]It's already been discovered. I was just giving you one last chance to reflect that maybe we knew something that you didn't - but instead you've demonstrated that, as suspected, you're just another creationist bletherskite whose ignorance is maintained by so much misplaced arrogance that you don't even bother to do a simple Google/Wikipedia check before posting coprolites.
There are lifeforms that use a different set of amino-acids, they obviously do postdate LUCA, and you clearly aren't aware of their existence.
Now you could argue that this is only the addition of one amino-acid to the usual set, rather than a completely different set. But overcoming Dory's and your objections doesn't require that completely different set be used, only that it is possible to (I) add new amino acids, (ii) change what amino-acid a codon relates to. There evidence for both of these, but neither you nor Dory knows about that evidence.
Your claims that amino-acid sets can't evolved aren't based on knowledge, or even on ignorance (which is curable), but on your unshakeable assumption that you aren't ignorant. As such, any claims you make about the difficulties involved in amino-acid set evolution aren't worth any consideration at all, because - and I will continue to stress this - your ignorance is not an argument.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostAnd as I recall I responded to your posts, and got a response that said "What are your qualifications to critique this research?"
This is not a way to conduct a discussion.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Ok, since i've been ignoring this while sick, it seems like a good chance to back up to some basic stuff. Lee, without resorting to internet searches, can you answer the following questions:
How many different sets of amino acids are currently in use? (Or, put differently, how many distinct genetic codes are there?)
What is the name of the class of enzyme responsible for matching amino acids to genetic codes?
Has that enzyme class shown signs of recent evolution?
These all seem relevant to your claim that the genetic code hasn't evolved. Do you actually know them?"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostOk, since i've been ignoring this while sick, it seems like a good chance to back up to some basic stuff. Lee, without resorting to internet searches, can you answer the following questions:
How many different sets of amino acids are currently in use? (Or, put differently, how many distinct genetic codes are there?)
What is the name of the class of enzyme responsible for matching amino acids to genetic codes?
Has that enzyme class shown signs of recent evolution?
These all seem relevant to your claim that the genetic code hasn't evolved. Do you actually know them?
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Originally posted by Roy View PostActually, he does. So do I. Shunya has hinted at it several times, as have I, but neither you nor Dory have bothered to do any research to see whether such evidence exists. Scientific conclusions are always amendable when new discoveries are found, right?
So, there is nothing that prevents your hypothetical scenario from being discovered.It's already been discovered. I was just giving you one last chance to reflect that maybe we knew something that you didn't - but instead you've demonstrated that, as suspected, you're just another creationist bletherskite whose ignorance is maintained by so much misplaced arrogance that you don't even bother to do a simple Google/Wikipedia check before posting coprolites.
There are lifeforms that use a different set of amino-acids, they obviously do postdate LUCA, and you clearly aren't aware of their existence.
Now you could argue that this is only the addition of one amino-acid to the usual set, rather than a completely different set. But overcoming Dory's and your objections doesn't require that completely different set be used, only that it is possible to (I) add new amino acids, (ii) change what amino-acid a codon relates to. There evidence for both of these, but neither you nor Dory knows about that evidence.
Your claims that amino-acid sets can't evolved aren't based on knowledge, or even on ignorance (which is curable), but on your unshakeable assumption that you aren't ignorant. As such, any claims you make about the difficulties involved in amino-acid set evolution aren't worth any consideration at all, because - and I will continue to stress this - your ignorance is not an argument.
The organisms that use Pyrrolysine have genes for a specific tRNA and aminoacyl-tRNA-synthetase for Pyrrolysine. And, it doesn't replace an existing amino acid/codon mapping, it codes to one of the stop codons.
You need to explain how either one (tRNA or aminoacyl-tRNA-synthetase) could have been selected for without the other one existing. They work together.
Is this a case of an additional amino acid being added to the set or a case of discovering an amino acid that was always being used in certain organisms?
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Originally posted by TheLurch View PostOk, since i've been ignoring this while sick, it seems like a good chance to back up to some basic stuff. Lee, without resorting to internet searches, can you answer the following questions:
How many different sets of amino acids are currently in use? (Or, put differently, how many distinct genetic codes are there?)Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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