Bill Nye The Idiot Guy

[seer]

Except in my case it is about the eternal survival of the species.

Any initiation of coercion or violence against another person demonstrably damages the social fabric of the group.

But it doesn't with our primate cousins. The very same creatures you are so fond of pointing to justify things like homosexual behavior.

Undoubtedly our primitive ancestors did too but overall modern man no longer holds to such values.

And yet, these groups remained cohesive. So your whole argument against rape based on social cohesion fails.

...as opposed to Evangelicals demanding their own way in the name of their god, you mean.

Yet the majority of the US is still Christian, the godless leftists are the ones disturbing the social order. So by your own standard, that something is immoral or wrong if it undermines social cohesion, godless liberalism is evil. Or are you going to be hypocritical?

[Roy]

But it doesn't with our primate cousins. The very same creatures you are so fond of pointing to justify things like homosexual behavior.

And yet, these groups remained cohesive. So your whole argument against rape based on social cohesion fails.

It doesn't fail at all, since you have only asserted, not demonstrated, that rape does not affect social cohesion in primates.

It isn't enough to show that primates still have cohesive groups - for your point to be valid you would need to show that their social cohesion could not be higher, or at least that such events do not cause a (possibly temporary) lessening of social cohesion within those groups.

Showing that some level of social cohesion exists does not demonstrate that social cohesion is unaffected, any more than showing that some-one has some money does not demonstrate that they don't pay taxes.

[seer]

It doesn't fail at all, since you have only asserted, not demonstrated, that rape does not affect social cohesion in primates.

Really, they look pretty happy and content to me. For apes that is. They still flourish and thrive. If you can show otherwise please do.

It isn't enough to show that primates still have cohesive groups - for your point to be valid you would need to show that their social cohesion could not be higher, or at least that such events do not cause a (possibly temporary) lessening of social cohesion within those groups.

No, all I have to do is to show that the social order remains intact and that the group still thrives. It is on you or Tass to show that rape has a significant impact on cohesion. As far as we can tell they are doing just fine as they are.

Showing that some level of social cohesion exists does not demonstrate that social cohesion is unaffected, any more than showing that some-one has some money does not demonstrate that they don't pay taxes.

And yet you can not demonstrate that rape has any significant negative consequences, especially with primates that have been around at least as long as us.

[oxmixmudd]

Er, Jim, from an atheistic pov morality cannot be both god-revealed and naturally-evolved because it cannot be god-revealed at all; there is no god to reveal morality.

This isn't a false dichotomy. It's not that there can be no overlap, it's that there is nothing to overlap with.

Ok - fair enough. My statement about the false dichotomy of atheisn relates to a point of argument for atheism rather than from the point of believing it. So I suppose I should revise my statement to reflect that, e.g. a false dchotomy assumed by many arguments for atheism.

Thanks for helping clarify that.

Jim

[Roy]

Really, they look pretty happy and content to me. For apes that is. They still flourish and thrive. If you can show otherwise please do.

No, all I have to do is to show that the social order remains intact and that the group still thrives. It is on you or Tass to show that rape has a significant impact on cohesion. As far as we can tell they are doing just fine as they are.

And yet you can not demonstrate that rape has any significant negative consequences, especially with primates that have been around at least as long as us.

You are the one claiming that rape in primates has no effect on social cohesion. It's not up to anyone else to support your argument.

[seer]

You are the one claiming that rape in primates has no effect on social cohesion. It's not up to anyone else to support your argument.

First I said:

That is just stupid. Altruistic instincts as a social species? Orangutans are a very social species, yet up to half of all mating is what we would call forced sex or rape, there is also a high rate with chimpanzees. Both of these being close relatives to humans. So altruism (and both these species display altruistic tendencies) can clearly live side by side with rape. So you have no ethical stopping point that is not arbitrary. Never mind the fact that rape probably offers an evolutionary advantage.

Tass responded to me, then I said:

Your claim, which is obviously false, was that rape would undermine social cohesion. How many times have you pointed back to the behavior of primates to explain or justify human behavior? Except when it is a behavior that you don't personally care for. So if rape does not necessarily undermine social cohesion then on what basis would you call it wrong or immoral?

Tass' claim was that rape would undermine social cohesion, and that was why it was wrong or immoral. My point was that that is not necessarily so, and as a matter of fact our closest primate cousins maintain social order even with wide spread rape. And there is no evidence that rape has any real effect on cohesion.

[Sparko]

wrong. Morals are rules of behavior with a purpose: to be good and better. Otherwise they mean nothing. You could say that stealing is moral because you can make a rule that says "steal from people to get rich"

You are a moron.

[Tassman]

wrong. Morals are rules of behavior with a purpose: to be good and better. Otherwise they mean nothing.

YOU

You could say that stealing is moral because you can make a rule that says "steal from people to get rich"

You are a moron.

Yeah right!

[Tassman]

Except in my case it is about the eternal survival of the species.

"Except" in your case, your "eternal survival" is a pipe dream.

But it doesn't with our primate cousins. The very same creatures you are so fond of pointing to justify things like homosexual behavior. And yet, these groups remained cohesive. So your whole argument against rape based on social cohesion fails.

I have said several times that primate group behaviour, although similar in many respects, is not the same a that of a more intelligent species like us.

Yet the majority of the US is still Christian,

And yet the US is the most violent, inequitable nation is the Western world. So much for Christian values.

the godless leftists are the ones disturbing the social order. So by your own standard, that something is immoral or wrong if it undermines social cohesion, godless liberalism is evil. Or are you going to be hypocritical?

The social order can never be cohesive whilst sections of the community are deprived of full civil rights.

[Roy]

You are the one claiming that rape in primates has no effect on social cohesion. It's not up to anyone else to support your argument.

Tass' claim was that rape would undermine social cohesion, and that was why it was wrong or immoral. My point was that that is not necessarily so, and as a matter of fact our closest primate cousins maintain social order even with wide spread rape. And there is no evidence that rape has any real effect on cohesion.

Repeating your claim is not supporting it.

Even if there is no evidence that rape has any real effect on cohesion, that is not evidence that it has no effect. Especially when "there is no evidence" actually means 'I haven't looked for evidence and don't want to'.

[seer]

"Except" in your case, your "eternal survival" is a pipe dream.

No it isn't, it is based on the teachings and resurrection of the single most influential religious figure in human history, Christ Jesus. I'm good with that.

I have said several times that primate group behaviour, although similar in many respects, is not the same a that of a more intelligent species like us.

That however does not mean that rape would necessarily undermine the social order as you claimed. It doesn't with primates. And that was your whole argument as to why rape was immoral or wrong. So you really have no good argument for why rape is immoral.

And yet the US is the most violent, inequitable nation is the Western world. So much for Christian values.

But it is not religion that is causing the violence. And you know that.

The social order can never be cohesive whilst sections of the community are deprived of full civil rights.

That is one of the most stupid things you have said. I bet China and North Korea are very cohesive. But back to my point, you would have no problem upsetting the social order for causes you agree with. So your whole argument about something being wrong or immoral because it disturbed the social order is pure nonsense - you don't even believe it yourself.

[seer]

Repeating your claim is not supporting it.

Even if there is no evidence that rape has any real effect on cohesion, that is not evidence that it has no effect. Especially when "there is no evidence" actually means 'I haven't looked for evidence and don't want to'.

What do you mean, it is on Tass or you to show that rape would have a real effect on social cohesion. That was what Tass was claiming, that rape was immoral because it would disturb said cohesion. If you have such evidence please present it. We know that our primate cousins can and do maintain order even with wide spread rape - we couldn't do the same? And in many forms, like wife rape, rape has been either quietly accepted or minimized in criminal law. As is the case in much of Islam today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rape

[Sparko]

YOU

You are repeating yourself. It is about each of us. you. me. the guy next door.


Not when you steal from another group. Just look at street gangs. They steal all the time.

[Sparko]

You are a moron.

Yeah right!

At least you admit it.

[seer]

Not when you steal from another group. Just look at street gangs. They steal all the time.

And the Europeans took the Americas from the natives - and the Europeans prospered because of it...