Bill Nye The Idiot Guy

[seer]

There's a lot of information. In Classical Greece, you know the home of Aristotle and Plato and the birthplace of democracy, homosexuality was regarded as the perfect form of love.

Right, and? What about the warrior tribes of Africa? Germanic tribes? Feudal Asian societies? And other native groups?

A lot of cultures practised slavery too, including the Christian majority USA, did that make it moral? Unlike homosexuality, there were victims in slavery.

There are victims with child sacrifice, which is still widely accepted and practiced - we just call it abortion today. And so what if there were victims in slavery? What does that make it immoral?

[Sparko]

You seem to be dodging the questions. Please try again.

Do you think hetero people never do anal intercourse? What about oral and manual stimulation and sex toys and all the other variations humans have come up with? Are they all OK for everyone in your book? Do you think non-hetero people are incapable of pair-bonding and sharing the most intimate times while making love to their partner?



Immoral would depend on the individual case. Of course a father or brother forcing themselves on a younger family member is immoral and illegal. If you have two consenting adult siblings who know exactly what they're doing and no one is harmed, OK.

Now will you answer my questions?

I think anal sex is dangerous and should not be done by anyone. It is unclean, can lead to ruptures and internal bleeding. If a hetero couple does it and the woman dies of hemorrhaging the husband should be prosecuted for manslaughter.

So you think incest is not moral? wow.

do you at least admit most societies have believed it to be immoral?

[Sparko]

0-

I specifically said as long at it doesn't harm anyone. Killing or raping harms someone. I know your reading comprehension is better that what you're showing here.

no you said "as long as it doesn't harm me, anyone else, or society in general it's not immoral."

so now harm to one of the partners also makes it immoral. so what about BDSM? using whips, or cutting, or strangulation? I guess you now think that is immoral?

[seer]

so now harm to one of the partners also makes it immoral. so what about BDSM? using whips, or cutting, or strangulation? I guess you now think that is immoral?

No, they will just change from harm being a no no, to consent being a requirement.

[Sparko]

No, they will just change from harm being a no no, to consent being a requirement.

so if a man talks his wife into consenting to be strangled while he has sex with her, and she dies or ends up with brain damage, is he an immoral criminal?

[seer]

so if a man talks his wife into consenting to be strangled while he has sex with her, and she dies or ends up with brain damage, is he an immoral criminal?

Of course not.

[Jedidiah]

None as you well know. Your implication was that sex is only moral within a marriage.

You should learn to write what you mean. I said

I believe that sex within marriage is moral.

You replied

This is the Judeo/Christian view. But it hasn't been the case in most cultures throughout most of human history, including some of the greatest civilisations devised by man.

This said to me that you thought that Judeo/Christian view (that sex within marriage is moral) was not shared by most of historical cultures.

[HMS_Beagle]

I think anal sex is dangerous and should not be done by anyone. It is unclean, can lead to ruptures and internal bleeding. If a hetero couple does it and the woman dies of hemorrhaging the husband should be prosecuted for manslaughter.

You're still dancing around the question. I know you think it's icky and dangerous. Is anal sex by a married hetero couple immoral? Yes or no, and why?

So you think incest is not moral? wow.

I told you it depends on the specifics but you conveniently ignored that part.

My general guideline for "moral" or 'immoral" is: if the action causes or threatens to cause harm to others without the others agreeing to the risks then it's immoral. Hang gliding is much more dangerous than consensual anal sex but neither are immoral because the participants know and agree to the risks. Smoking in public is immoral because the second hand smoke poses a real health risk to those in the area who didn't agree to the smoking.

There, I gave you my reasoning, now let's hear yours.

[Starlight]

I think anal sex is dangerous and should not be done by anyone. It is unclean, can lead to ruptures and internal bleeding. If a hetero couple does it and the woman dies of hemorrhaging the husband should be prosecuted for manslaughter.

Kellyanne Conway would be proud of your alternative facts. Reminds me of a scene in the movie Saved where the Christian schoolteacher's entire sex-ed class consists of "if you have sex, you'll catch an STD and die."

Right, and? What about the warrior tribes of Africa? Germanic tribes? Feudal Asian societies? And other native groups?

formalized homosexuality in some places and various homosexual practices right across the continent.

Germanic tribes I know very little about in general... did they even have writing? I thought they were barbarian tribes who wore wolf-skins and attacked the Roman Empire? Do we know anything much about them at all? I do know that almost all early Roman sources that mention the Scottish attribute high levels of homosexual behavior to them, though this might be a widespread rumor of course, but the fact that so many sources mention it suggests there might be truth in the matter.

As far as feudal Asian societies go...
In Japan:

In Japan, the practice of shudō (衆道), "the Way of the Young", paralleled closely the course of European pederasty. It was prevalent in the religious community and samurai society from the mediaeval period on, and eventually grew to permeate all of society. It fell out of favor around the end of the 19th century, concurrently with the growing European influence.

Its legendary founder is Kūkai, also known as Kōbō Daishi, the founder of the Shingon school of Buddhism, who is said to have brought the teachings of male love over from China, together with the teachings of the Buddha. Monks often entered into love relationships with beautiful youths known as chigo (稚児), which were recorded in literary works known as chigo monogatari (稚児物語).

Imperial China seems to have been historically the most open country in the region about its homosexual practices, with a Chinese writer in the 3rd century claiming:

All the gentlemen and officials esteemed it. All men in the realm followed this fashion to the extent that husbands and wives were estranged.

Numerous early Chinese emperors are believed to have had homosexual relationships as well as heterosexual ones, just like all the early Roman Emperors.

Across Southern Asia, from India through Thailand etc there is a strong historical tradition of 3rd gender, and homosexuality is historically well-known in these countries.

And other native groups?

The native peoples of both your continent and my own were fine with homosexuality.

From the Encyclopedia of NZ:

When Europeans arrived in New Zealand they found that Māori views of sexuality were different from Western ideas of the time. Māori chiefs would often have more than one wife. Except for puhi (high-born women set aside for a political marriage), sex before marriage carried no stigma...
There are a number of recorded examples of new settlers cohabiting in same-sex relationships with Māori. The most well-documented example is the Reverend William Yate, an English missionary, who lived with his male companion for two years in the Māori village of Waimate, before being expelled to England for homosexual behaviour. His relationship seems to have been accepted by the Māori community... "[the Maori] simply declared that they were unaware of any sinfulness in such practices"

[seer]

formalized homosexuality in some places and various homosexual practices right across the continent.

There is no consensus that homosexuality was wide spread or generally accepted on the African continent.

Germanic tribes I know very little about in general... did they even have writing? I thought they were barbarian tribes who wore wolf-skins and attacked the Roman Empire? Do we know anything much about them at all? I do know that almost all early Roman sources that mention the Scottish attribute high levels of homosexual behavior to them, though this might be a widespread rumor of course, but the fact that so many sources mention it suggests there might be truth in the matter.

Right, like I said, we do not have enough historical information. Contrary to what Tass claimed.

In Japan:

In Japan, the practice of shudō (衆道), "the Way of the Young", paralleled closely the course of European pederasty. It was prevalent in the religious community and samurai society from the mediaeval period on, and eventually grew to permeate all of society. It fell out of favor around the end of the 19th century, concurrently with the growing European influence.

Its legendary founder is Kūkai, also known as Kōbō Daishi, the founder of the Shingon school of Buddhism, who is said to have brought the teachings of male love over from China, together with the teachings of the Buddha. Monks often entered into love relationships with beautiful youths known as chigo (稚児), which were recorded in literary works known as chigo monogatari (稚児物語).

Again, you are dealing with multiple clans, with different moral ideas. No evidence of wide spread practice or acceptance.

The native peoples of both your continent and my own were fine with homosexuality.

Which native peoples? Which tribes? There were literally dozens and dozens, not all shared the same moral outlook. But like I suggested, like any other sin, it is not surprising to find reference to it in history. We find rape and child sacrifice too - does that make them moral.

[HMS_Beagle]

Kellyanne Conway would be proud of your alternative facts. Reminds me of a scene in the movie Saved where the Christian schoolteacher's entire sex-ed class consists of "if you have sex, you'll catch an STD and die."

On a different board I once saw an ignorant knob swear gay sex even between two complete virgins causes STDs. You can't make up idiocy like that, you just can't.

[Tassman]

I think anal sex is dangerous and should not be done by anyone. It is unclean, can lead to ruptures and internal bleeding. If a hetero couple does it and the woman dies of hemorrhaging the husband should be prosecuted for manslaughter.

Before 'the pill' anal sex was widely practised among heterosexuals as a means of birth control. Perhaps couples should just stick to oral sex.

So you think incest is not moral? wow.

The proscription re incest was primarily because of the dangers of inbreeding and resultant possible abnormalities, not because it was immoral per se.

But face it, you lot will object to any form of sexuality that's outside of hetero marriage and not for the strict purpose of reproduction.

[Tassman]

Right, and? What about the warrior tribes of Africa? Germanic tribes? Feudal Asian societies? And other native groups?

What about them?

There are victims with child sacrifice, which is still widely accepted and practiced - we just call it abortion today. And so what if there were victims in slavery? What does that make it immoral?

So abortion is "child sacrifice" now. Wow!

[Starlight]

On a different board I once saw an ignorant knob swear gay sex even between two complete virgins causes STDs. You can't make up idiocy like that, you just can't.

It's brought to you by the "touching yourself too much makes you go blind" and "drinking lots of Mountain Dew works well as a contraceptive" school of sex-ed.

There is no consensus that homosexuality was wide spread or generally accepted on the African continent.

Right, like I said, we do not have enough historical information.

Again, you are dealing with multiple clans, with different moral ideas. No evidence of wide spread practice or acceptance.

Wow that's enough denial you've got going there to make a herd of ostriches with their heads all in the sand embarrassed for you. Sorry if you don't like the historical facts which show that homosexuality was cross-culturally widespread and widely accepted. Apart from the few citations I gave in this thread, I have cited dozens more examples to you in the past. If you flatly refuse to accept facts, then I guess this conversation is at an end. But please do stop stating falsehoods.

[HMS_Beagle]

It's brought to you by the "touching yourself too much makes you go blind" and "drinking lots of Mountain Dew works well as a contraceptive" school of sex-ed.

One I heard was a good form of birth control is to put a pebble in the guy's shoe. Makes him limp.