The problem of evidence for a Biblical Flood

[Adrift]

. . . because it did not reflect the overwhelming amount of academic literature concerning the world wide rise in sea level in that period and the abundant literature, some cited in the article that shows a gradual sediment deposition record in the Black Sea and the North Sea that match the gradual sea level rise. There is no evidence for a catastrophic sediment deposit in the Black Sea basin associated with the increased rise in sea level. This true for the whole region around the Mediteranian, North Sea and for that matter world wide.

Huh? Where you getting that idea?

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

In 2016 Ryan, Dimitrov et. al. reviewed the evidence accumulated and reaffirmed the catastrophic scenario (Project: DO02-337 "Ancient coastlines of the Black Sea and conditions for human presence", sponsored by Bulgarian Scientific Fund).[19]

© Copyright Original Source

Just because it doesn't say what you want it to say doesn't mean it doesn't reflect "academic literature" on the subject.

[shunyadragon]

Huh? Where you getting that idea?

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

In 2016 Ryan, Dimitrov et. al. reviewed the evidence accumulated and reaffirmed the catastrophic scenario (Project: DO02-337 "Ancient coastlines of the Black Sea and conditions for human presence", sponsored by Bulgarian Scientific Fund).[19]

© Copyright Original Source

Just because it doesn't say what you want it to say doesn't mean it doesn't reflect "academic literature" on the subject.

one in hundreds does not reflect the academic literature. I am very familiar with the sediment core records in the academic literature of both the Black Sea and the North Sea showing gradual cyclic sea rise in that period world wide. This is part of my specialty in geology involving geomorphology and sedimentation.

Cores taken by the petroleum industries search for oil and gas are extensive and comprehensive.

[Adrift]

one in hundreds does not reflect the academic literature.

Where are you getting "one in hundreds" from? You quickly googled for something that you thought could back some sort of argument that you thought refuted some pro-localized flood argument. The first source that came up was the "Black Sea deluge hypothesis" Wikipedia webpage. You quickly scanned for criticisms of the theory, and then only selected that part of the criticism that you thought would make your point for you. Then you pretended that the last sentence of your very own source did not exist, and now you're pretending as though that source is "one in hundreds" sans justification?

You're a very dishonest individual shunyadragon. You should be ashamed of yourself. A better man would be.

I am very familiar with the sediment core records in the academic literature of both the Black Sea and the North Sea showing gradual cyclic sea rise in that period world wide. This is part of my specialty in geology involving geomorphology and sedimentation.

Cores taken by the petroleum industries search for oil and gas are extensive and comprehensive.

I thought you had worked in China. Your claim is that, as part of your work as a core analyzer for an oil company, you had to familiarize yourself with "academic literature" of ancient flood records for the Black Sea?

[Kbertsche]

Local catastrophic river valley flooding events are possible for the Tigris Euphrates River Valleys, but not a regional flooding event.

WHY is a regional flood in this area impossible? Are you referring to geologic features?

And even though lower Mesopotamia seems to be the best fit to the biblical record, a number of other areas (e.g. the northern end of the Persian gulf) have been suggested.

It is further grasping at straws in hopes that any sudden regional flood has occurred in recent human history to justify a regional Genesis flood. The geology of the Mediteranian region and the Middle East as well as the whole is now well explored and studied, and there is no sign of a regional flood.

Why do you restrict a flood to recent human history? If it were 50,000-100,000 years ago, the evidence for it would be very difficult to detect. Remember, the Black Sea event was only recognized recently, and was 5x-10x closer to us in time. A regional flood 5x-10x older than this could well have been missed.

[oxmixmudd]

. . . because it did not reflect the overwhelming amount of academic literature concerning the world wide rise in sea level in that period and the abundant literature, some cited in the article that shows a gradual sediment deposition record in the Black Sea and the North Sea that match the gradual sea level rise. There is no evidence for a catastrophic sediment deposit in the Black Sea basin associated with the increased rise in sea level. This true for the whole region around the Mediteranian, North Sea and for that matter world wide.

have you read the 2016 Ryan article so referenced?

Your argument they must be wrong because they differ from other conclusions is invalid. That is never a valid reason to reject the results of a legitimate, reviewed, scientific paper.

In it they evaluate the 4 primary hypothesis governing the rise in the level of the black sea at the end of the last ice age. Evaluating each against a specific set of data and evidence. Their conclusion is that a relatively rapid infilling and greater depth change is the only hypothesis that is in agreement with all that evidence, and that the other three are specifically refuted by that evidence.

If they are wrong, they you need to define WHY they are wrong. This is a legitimate paper in a legitimate journal. It is one of the more recent evaluations of the data on this subject. Observing your response shuny - it does not look to me like the evaluations of one not predisposed to a certain conclusion.

Scientific history of full of consensus opinions upended by new evidence and new theories.

Summary of my basic position on this issue: The presence of an event that could serve as a legitimate explanation of Noah's flood is against the IDEOLOGY of many who would prefer it be pure myth. However, a vast flood described as 'world ending' is part of the cultural histories of a very large area of the middle east. To presume it has no basis in fact is not an objective position. Floods are natural events. Really big, catestrophic floods of various types were part of the last de-glaciation across the world. They are also the potential outcome of a sufficiently large, water based impact event. To presume then that a story of a 'world-wide' flood can only be explained by the unsophisticated over-exaggeration of some normal river flood is to presume these peoples were not very smart or not very sophisticated, and to deny potential known causes which were in play and which could have produced something more deserving of that description. In fact, such a general dismissal seems to me to be the more irrational, ideologically based position.

So from you I am looking for something more substantial in terms of a critique of this most recent paper promoting the idea of a more rapid rise in the Black Sea water level.

2016 ryan journal article : science direct


Jim

[shunyadragon]

Where are you getting "one in hundreds" from? You quickly googled for something that you thought could back some sort of argument that you thought refuted some pro-localized flood argument. The first source that came up was the "Black Sea deluge hypothesis" Wikipedia webpage. You quickly scanned for criticisms of the theory, and then only selected that part of the criticism that you thought would make your point for you. Then you pretended that the last sentence of your very own source did not exist, and now you're pretending as though that source is "one in hundreds" sans justification?

You're a very dishonest individual shunyadragon. You should be ashamed of yourself. A better man would be.

I thought you had worked in China. Your claim is that, as part of your work as a core analyzer for an oil company, you had to familiarize yourself with "academic literature" of ancient flood records for the Black Sea?

I smell a nasty dishonest emotional response with an agenda of finding the Genesis flood

I degree in geology and was a licensed geologist and soil scientist and worked on drill rigs logging cores before and after living in China. I have several published articles,one on coastal geomorphology and soils, and another on field methods to evaluate engineering properties of soils. We will start with the following article of cores in the Black Sea.

[shunyadragon]

Actually many scientists by far consider the major post glacial filling to come from Glacial melt rivers from the East (Danube) and North, which later equalize data higher sea level, and the following research showed heavy outflow south, because of glacial melt flowing in from the North and East resulted in the formation of a delta south of the Bosphorus straight during the period some claim the Black Sea flooded. It is actual physical evidence of a delta.

Source: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305761612_Early_Holocene_age_and_provenance_of_a_mid-shelf_delta_lobe_south_of_the_Strait_of_Bosphorus_Turkey_and_its_link_to_vigorous_Black_Sea_outflow

Early Holocene age and provenance of a mid-shelf delta lobe south of the Strait of Bosphorus, Turkey, and its link to vigorous Black Sea outflow

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

The cores in this research project show no signs a rapid flooding of the Black Sea basin.

Source: http://deepseadrilling.org/42_2/volume/dsdp42pt2_14.pdf

14. VARVE CHRONOLOGY: ESTIMATED RATES OF SEDIMENTATION
IN THE BLACK SEA DEEP BASIN

Egon T. Degens, Hamburg University, Hamburg, Germany,
Peter Stoffers, Heidelberg University, Heidelberg, Germany,
Stjepko Golubic, Boston University, Boston, Massachusetts, USA
and Mike D. Dickman, Brock University, St. Catharine's, Ontario, Canada

ABSTRACT

Various varve types and their implication in estimating rates of sedimentation in the Black Sea Basin are discussed. Average modern denudation rates in the Black Sea source area are estimated at 0.063 mm/yr or about 100 t/km2/yr. The stripped detritus would yield a sediment blanket of 0.4 mm/yr if spread evenly over the entire bottom of the Black Sea. Siliceous and calcareous remains of planktonic production would give additional increment, raising the average thickness close to 0.5 mm/yr. This value is representative for steppe vegetation. At times of forest vegetation, the denudation rate is lowered by more than half. Applying compaction effects, and assuming similar orographic relationships for the Pleistocene, the mean rate of deposition is 20 cm/103 yr. Since slumping and turbidity currents would eventually carry the bulk of the detritus to the deep basin, the sedimentation rate would almost double there. At times of glacial melting and loess mobilization, sedimentation rates could be as high as 10 m/103 yr. Rapid subsidence of the basin floor would also induce pulses of turbidites.

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

This source considers the fluctuation of levels of the BlackSea during its isolation due to the fluctuation of the flow of freshwater of fresh water from the rivers and post glacial rise is due to fresh water form glacial melt until it equalized with the rising Mediterranean rising sea level. This fits well with the research showing the outflow into the Mediterranean form a delta.

Source: http://archimer.ifremer.fr/doc/00095/20637/18272.pdf

Late Quaternary deep-sea sedimentation in the western Black Sea: New
insights from recent coring and seismic data in the deep basin

Ross et al. (1978a) proposed that the Black Sea water level has independently oscillated from the global ocean, as it was an isolated basin for any water level below the depth of the strait (i.e. Dardanelles and/or Bosporus). Consequently, the high/low positions of the Black Sea level are more directly influenced by dry-wet cycles in Eurasia than eustatic cycles of the world ocean. During the Black Sea lowstands (i.e glacial times), the basin was isolated. The large freshwater inputs from the major rivers and the temporary absence of marine water input changed the Black Sea into a fresh (Soulet et al., 2010) to brackish lake.

© Copyright Original Source

No sea water flooding here in the filling of the Black Sea found here.

[shunyadragon]

note: This reference describes the sediment evidence as only "Some sapropels indicated only occasional spills (sudden influxes of marine Mediterranean water)"

Source: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/A0567020BD013943AC1E28FAC3818806/S0033822200043393a.pdf/estimated-reservoir-ages-of-the-black-sea-since-the-last-glacial.pdf

Some sapropels indicated only occasional spills (sudden influxes of marine Mediterranean water).

© Copyright Original Source

[shunyadragon]

This reference of detailed extensive research on the sediments from the Late Glacial Maximum (LGM) through the Holocene concludes that dominant if not all inflow is from freshwater glacial melt from the north in the Holocene.

Source: http://elib.suub.uni-bremen.de/diss/docs/00010181.pdf

Late Glacial to Holocene Paleoenvironmental Evolution of the Black Sea

© Copyright Original Source

[Adrift]

I smell a nasty dishonest emotional response with an agenda of finding the Genesis flood

I degree in geology and was a licensed geologist and soil scientist and worked on drill rigs logging cores before and after living in China. I have several published articles,one on coastal geomorphology and soils, and another on field methods to evaluate engineering properties of soils. We will start with the following article of cores in the Black Sea.

[shunyadragon]

<snip>

[Adrift]

Yeah, that's what I figured.

[shunyadragon]

<snip>

Airhead airball!