Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[Apologiaphoenix]

Way to misconstrue what I said

[One Bad Pig]

Your whining and protests are as pathetic as the third hand reports you want me to believe.

WHO are the doctors that you want me to believe? What are their names? Where are their medical practices? Let me see a written statement from them! Let me see the medical records!

If you depended only on data you could verify first-hand, you'd be able to establish the truth of very little. Your extreme skepticism is unwarranted.

I'm not going to accept third hand reports from charismatics LOOKING for miracles.

Jacob Loewen is quite obviously not a charismatic looking for miracles. Quit looking for excuses to ignore evidence.

Ok, Doctor OBP. Here is a case for you. Give me the diagnosis:

A 43 y/o woman has a fever of 103 degrees and is bed-ridden. She has no appetite and barely moves in bed. She says she feels like she is dying.

What is the diagnosis?

Those aren't the only symptoms of pneumonia, Gary. Quit erecting strawmen.

[Gary]

If you depended only on data you could verify first-hand, you'd be able to establish the truth of very little. Your extreme skepticism is unwarranted.

Jacob Loewen is quite obviously not a charismatic looking for miracles. Quit looking for excuses to ignore evidence.


Those aren't the only symptoms of pneumonia, Gary. Quit erecting strawmen.

[Gary]

I would like to address the (non-Pentecostal/non-charismatic) Protestants on this thread:

Dear Protestant friends:

Would you go to a stock broker who tried to push a stock on you to purchase that he himself hadn't purchased? Would you take his advice on anything? So why listen to someone who is pushing the reality of the claims of modern faith-healers when he himself does not attend a Church that believes in faith healers??

Nick doesn't attend a Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, or Orthodox church. He attends a LUTHERAN church. Other than the Calvinists, you can't get much more anti-faith healer than the Lutherans. I recommend we not believe Nick's claims of modern faith healing until Nick puts his money where his mouth is!

I believe that Nick is using Keener's unsubstantiated, anecdotal, third-hand at best miracle claims as a canard. He doesn't really believe them. He just wants to use them to prop up his weak argument for the Resurrection.

My Protestant friends: Get out your history books. Take a look at western society prior to Martin Luther. It was a THREE-RING CIRCUS! Practically every church on the planet, Catholic or Orthodox, had a relic or an icon with magical powers. Some churches claimed to have nails from the cross; the blood that was mopped up at the foot of the cross; thorns from the crown of thorns; and of course, Jesus' burial clothes. So many churches claimed to have pieces of the cross itself that you could have constructed a two story house from all the wood! Multiple churches claimed to have the baby teeth, hair, and foreskin of Jesus! Magic tricks and relic shows were on every street corner!

Do you really want to turn western society back into that kind of a mystical/hocus-pocus carnival side show??

Well that is what Keener and his fellow charismatics are tying to accomplish. They want to overturn rational thinking with magic and hocus pocus. They want to find something mystical under every rock and wood pile. They want to turn the art of healing into an hysteria-driven, holy-roller spectacle.

Believe in the miracles of Jesus by faith, my Protestant friends, but don't buy this unscientific, third-hand, anecdotal, Pentecostal nonsense, that Keener and Nick are peddling!

[One Bad Pig]

I'm going to make an educated guess and say that if the person said it was obviously pneumonia, then a large number of symptoms were present. This is not rocket science, Gary. And pneumonia is rather more deadly for people who are a) older and b) lack access to modern care. It is what killed off the Tasmanian natives, after all.

[One Bad Pig]

I would like to address the (non-Pentecostal/non-charismatic) Protestants on this thread:

Dear Protestant friends:

Would you go to a stock broker who tried to push a stock on you to purchase that he himself hadn't purchased? Would you take his advice on anything? So why listen to someone who is pushing the reality of the claims of modern faith-healers when he himself does not attend a Church that believes in faith healers??

Nick doesn't attend a Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, or Orthodox church. He attends a LUTHERAN church. Other than the Calvinists, you can't get much more anti-faith healer than the Lutherans. I recommend we not believe Nick's claims of modern faith healing until Nick puts his money where his mouth is!

I believe that Nick is using Keener's unsubstantiated, anecdotal, third-hand at best miracle claims as a canard. He doesn't really believe them. He just wants to use them to prop up his weak argument for the Resurrection.

My Protestant friends: Get out your history books. Take a look at western society prior to Martin Luther. It was a THREE-RING CIRCUS! Practically every church on the planet, Catholic or Orthodox, had a relic or an icon with magical powers. Some churches claimed to have nails from the cross; the blood that was mopped up at the foot of the cross; thorns from the crown of thorns; and of course, Jesus' burial clothes. So many churches claimed to have pieces of the cross itself that you could have constructed a two story house from all the wood! Multiple churches claimed to have the baby teeth, hair, and foreskin of Jesus! Magic tricks and relic shows were on every street corner!

Do you really want to turn western society back into that kind of a mystical/hocus-pocus carnival side show??

Well that is what Keener and his fellow charismatics are tying to accomplish. They want to overturn rational thinking with magic and hocus pocus. They want to find something mystical under every rock and wood pile. They want to turn the art of healing into an hysteria-driven, holy-roller spectacle.

Believe in the miracles of Jesus by faith, my Protestant friends, but don't buy this unscientific, third-hand, anecdotal, Pentecostal nonsense, that Keener and Nick are peddling!

You have obviously not been paying much attention to what you read. Dr. Keener references many accounts which are not from Pentacostals or charismatics, including some from Lutheran sources. The rest of your post is largely a fantasy of your own making, spun from Reformation-era anti-Catholic propaganda and over-wrought caricature.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Love what was said here. Gary said "If Muslims or Satanists were pushing this miracle, would you simply accept this third hand (at best) information?"

I replied

If Muslims or satanists were pushing a miracle, I would just as much look at the quality of the sources and decide. I don't change the rules based on which side is doing the arguing.

With the reply of

Yes. You would believe any miracle report based on what someone told someone who told someone who told someone that you read in a book.

Sad.

Let's do a thought experiment. Let's put us in another world for each of these. Let's suppose I had said an unconditional yes.

I would have been told

"Yes. See? You're gullible and superstitious and just believe everything you hear about miracles."

If I had said no it would be

"See? You're biased and you only believe the miracles from your own tradition?

Instead I gave the response of, you know, actually looking at the claim and judging it based by the evidence. (I could have sworn that would be the rational position, but I guess not. The rational position must not care about the evidence.) I get told because of that I will believe anything because I read it in a book. (To which, no. I am not ready to say every miracle in Keener has to be true. I don't think Keener would say that even. I am saying the abundance leads me to conclude that it's highly unlikely that every single person is wrong and for each individual claim, I look at the evidence. Still, at least we get Gary disparaging trusting books. That tells us a lot.)

No matter what answer, Gary would have just found a way to twist it.

Kind of like he does with Keener.

[Apologiaphoenix]

btw, I attended a Lutheran church in Knoxville, and this was a church where we had a Down Syndrome baby receive a miracle healing of a heart defect. We all celebrated it. The money that was to go towards the operation was given to another family at the hospital.

Our church is not opposed to faith healing.

[Gary]

Love what was said here. Gary said "If Muslims or Satanists were pushing this miracle, would you simply accept this third hand (at best) information?"

I replied



With the reply of



Let's do a thought experiment. Let's put us in another world for each of these. Let's suppose I had said an unconditional yes.

I would have been told

"Yes. See? You're gullible and superstitious and just believe everything you hear about miracles."

If I had said no it would be

"See? You're biased and you only believe the miracles from your own tradition?

Instead I gave the response of, you know, actually looking at the claim and judging it based by the evidence. (I could have sworn that would be the rational position, but I guess not. The rational position must not care about the evidence.) I get told because of that I will believe anything because I read it in a book. (To which, no. I am not ready to say every miracle in Keener has to be true. I don't think Keener would say that even. I am saying the abundance leads me to conclude that it's highly unlikely that every single person is wrong and for each individual claim, I look at the evidence. Still, at least we get Gary disparaging trusting books. That tells us a lot.)

No matter what answer, Gary would have just found a way to twist it.

Kind of like he does with Keener.

I have seen ZERO evidence from Keener so far and I am in chapter 10 of his book! All he gives are second, third, and fourth-hand anecdotal claims. No doctor's reports; no MRI or other imaging reports; no blood test result copies. Nada. He expects us to believe that "hundreds of millions" of people experience miracle medical cures but fails to provide the medical evidence to support it. That is NOT how scholars/experts work, Nick.

You should know better.

Again, I don't think you believe most of Keener's claims, you just want to use his "hundreds of millions" of anecdotal claims to make up for your weak evidence for the Resurrection miracle claim.

I am still reading Keener because he suggests that in later chapters he is going to give evidence for divine causation. I await this evidence with bated-breath!

[Apologiaphoenix]

So Gary only believes in first-hand claims, but yet believes in mind-reading.

Okay.

btw, way to ignore the main point I was making.....again....

[Gary]

btw, I attended a Lutheran church in Knoxville, and this was a church where we had a Down Syndrome baby receive a miracle healing of a heart defect. We all celebrated it. The money that was to go towards the operation was given to another family at the hospital.

Our church is not opposed to faith healing.

How many healing services has your Lutheran church held this year? I didn't say that Lutherans don't believe that God can heal people through prayer. I said they don't believe in faith-healers. Keener promotes faith healers who promise people healings. Lutheran pastors do NOT promise healings, they pray for healings. Big difference.

Again, if you really believed in faith healings you would attend a church where these miracles are performed on a regular basis and you would take your family members to faith healers for all serious health issues for which doctors have not found a cure. When was the last time you or a family member, at your bidding, went to a faith-healer, Nick?

[Gary]

So Gary only believes in first-hand claims, but yet believes in mind-reading.

Okay.

btw, way to ignore the main point I was making.....again....

Give me some medical reports, Nick. Stop with the wild-eyed, hysterical, charismatic, anecdotal, third-hand, "Enquirer" stories.

[Adam]

I would like to address the (non-Pentecostal/non-charismatic) Protestants on this thread:
Dear Protestant friends:
Would you go to a stock broker who tried to push a stock on you to purchase that he himself hadn't purchased? Would you take his advice on anything? So why listen to someone who is pushing the reality of the claims of modern faith-healers when he himself does not attend a Church that believes in faith healers??
Nick doesn't attend a Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, or Orthodox church. He attends a LUTHERAN church. Other than the Calvinists, you can't get much more anti-faith healer than the Lutherans.

You mean MISSOURI SYNOD LUTHERANS. Back in the heyday of the Charismatic Renewal in the 1980's there was LARC, a consortium of clergy and people from Lutheran, Anglican (Episcopalian) and Roman Catholics. I later became a Lutheran (ELCA, preferring NALC now) still believing in miracles for our day.

[Apologiaphoenix]

Give me some medical reports, Nick. Stop with the wild-eyed, hysterical, charismatic, anecdotal, third-hand, "Enquirer" stories.

You've got them. You're just doing a great job of ignoring them. Again, everyone has to be a liar or deceived or the recipient of a fraud because.....

Well, they can't go against an unevidenced position that miracles don't happen.

[Gary]

You mean MISSOURI SYNOD LUTHERANS. Back in the heyday of the Charismatic Renewal in the 1980's there was LARC, a consortium of clergy and people from Lutheran, Anglican (Episcopalian) and Roman Catholics. I later became a Lutheran (ELCA, preferring NALC now) still believing in miracles for our day.

How many Lutherans pastors performed healing ceremonies, pronouncing healing in the name of Jesus (promising healing)? Again, I never said that Lutherans don't believe that God can perform miracles/healings. But Lutherans don't hold healing services where they put their hand on someone's head, push them backwards, and pronounce that God has just healed them.

Lutherans don't PROMISE healing as charismatics do, they PRAY for healing.

Big difference.