Book Plunge: Can Christians Prove The Resurrection?

[One Bad Pig]

Maybe James felt guilty for not supporting his brother; for not being there with him during his trial and crucifixion. A guilty conscious is a strong motivator for vivid dreams.

And the same with Paul. Paul had been persecuting and even killing the followers of Jesus. Maybe he had a guilty conscious regarding killing Jews. A guilty conscious is a strong motivator for vivid dreams.

Guilt is not an operative factor in honor/shame societies. If anything, James would have been relieved that Jesus' death precluded additional shame accruing to his family members.

[Gary]

Yet it somehow happened to hundreds of people. Why would James have a grief hallucination? Why would Paul?

How do you know that "hundreds" saw Jesus?

Why do you insist on only allowing for hallucinations, not vivid dreams?

hallucination: perception of objects with no reality usually arising from disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs (as LSD)

[Gary]

Guilt is not an operative factor in honor/shame societies. If anything, James would have been relieved that Jesus' death precluded additional shame accruing to his family members.

No one ever acted on guilt in first century Judaism?

Assumption.

Judas' act of committing suicide had nothing to do with guilt?

Matthew 27:3-4

[One Bad Pig]

No one ever acted on guilt in first century Judaism?

Assumption.

Judas' act of committing suicide had nothing to do with guilt?

Matthew 27:3-4

Judas acted from shame, not guilt.

[One Bad Pig]

How do you know that "hundreds" saw Jesus?

Why do you insist on only allowing for hallucinations, not vivid dreams?

hallucination: perception of objects with no reality usually arising from disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs (as LSD)

There are multiple attestations of several people seeing Jesus at once. You keep trying to avoid that, because hallucinations and dreams are not shared experiences. There is no indication in the text that any of the people who saw Jesus were sleeping, which would also seem to rule out dreams.

[Gary]

Judas acted from shame, not guilt.

???

Ok...so James had a vivid dream due to his shame for having abandoned his brother when he was executed and Paul had a vision out of shame for killing fellow Jews.

[Gary]

There are multiple attestations of several people seeing Jesus at once. You keep trying to avoid that, because hallucinations and dreams are not shared experiences. There is no indication in the text that any of the people who saw Jesus were sleeping, which would also seem to rule out dreams.

Please provide an eyewitness statement of anyone who claimed to have seen Jesus' resurrected body. Stories by anonymous non-eyewitnesses, especially when their stories contain significant discrepancies, are hearsay, not attestations.

[Gary]

Judas acted from shame, not guilt.

The article you have linked to has no name applied to it, only the initials: JPH. That would not be the world famous Bible scholar, JP Holding, would it?

This article is pure rubbish. It assumes that ancient people never felt guilty unless they were caught. For instance, our illustrious scholar, JPH, gives the example of someone driving a car at 100 mph in the opposite direction on a one way street and asking if he were a person in an Honor-Shame society would he have a guilty conscience. JPH's answer is: no. He would only feel guilty and shamed if he were caught.

This statement makes the preposterous assumption that people in the ancient world were devoid of a conscience. It assumes that ALL people in the ancient world could murder innocent people at will and not feel an ounce of remorse or guilt unless they were caught.

This is yet another generalization and assumption about the behaviors of every single person in a culture that existed 20 centuries ago. It his horse hooey, to be as kind as possible to the proponents of this theory---(JP Holding and Nick Peters).

[jpholding]

This article is pure rubbish. It assumes that ancient people never felt guilty unless they were caught.

And by what moronic authority do you assume to contradict the findings of credentialed social science scholars?

He would only feel guilty and shamed if he were caught.

No, stupid. I do NOT say they'd ever feel guilt. I say they'd feel shame only if caught. This tells me you were too stupid to even understand the article.

This statement makes the preposterous assumption that people in the ancient world were devoid of a conscience.

Sorry you're so ignorant, but that's the fact of the matter, and the fact that you have your head tucked up your rear end doesn't make the facts change.

This is yet another generalization and assumption about the behaviors of every single person in a culture that existed 20 centuries ago. It his horse hooey, to be as kind as possible to the proponents of this theory---(JP Holding and Nick Peters).

We'll wait to see if you come up with an actual refutation, something with more substance than spittin' tobacky juice from the winder of yer pickup truck.

Redneck-GTAV-art.jpg

[Gary]

And by what moronic authority do you assume to contradict the findings of credentialed social science scholars?



No, stupid. I do NOT say they'd ever feel guilt. I say they'd feel shame only if caught. This tells me you were too stupid to even understand the article.



Sorry you're so ignorant, but that's the fact of the matter, and the fact that you have your head tucked up your rear end doesn't make the facts change.



We'll wait to see if you come up with an actual refutation, something with more substance than spittin' tobacky juice from the winder of yer pickup truck.

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You are not a scholar. You are a foul-mouthed fundamentalist, Florida preacher whose reputation on the internet would shame any other Christian. I have no interest in addressing you or your silly theory any further. The fact that no respected NT scholar uses your theory to any major extent to verify the Resurrection is proof that it is utter fundamentalist nonsense.

Good day to you, sir.

[One Bad Pig]

???

Ok...so James had a vivid dream due to his shame for having abandoned his brother when he was executed and Paul had a vision out of shame for killing fellow Jews.

This shows that you're not even trying to pay attention; I had already explained why this was unlikely before having recourse to the article.

[One Bad Pig]

You are not a scholar. You are a foul-mouthed fundamentalist, Florida preacher whose reputation on the internet would shame any other Christian. I have no interest in addressing you or your silly theory any further. The fact that no respected NT scholar uses your theory to any major extent to verify the Resurrection is proof that it is utter fundamentalist nonsense.

Good day to you, sir.

An insult should be a pointed barb that jabs home with speed and precision. Your attempts are more akin to flailing blindly with a cup of tofu. It looks ridiculous, does no harm and smells funny. [courtesy of John Dilick]

I'm sure that Bruce Malina (who IS a scholar, but you don't seem to have paid enough attention to the article to pick that up) would be amused to learn that he is an "utter fundamentalist."

[Gary]

An insult should be a pointed barb that jabs home with speed and precision. Your attempts are more akin to flailing blindly with a cup of tofu. It looks ridiculous, does no harm and smells funny. [courtesy of John Dilick]

I'm sure that Bruce Malina (who IS a scholar, but you don't seem to have paid enough attention to the article to pick that up) would be amused to learn that he is an "utter fundamentalist."

I'm done with you, Pigster.

[Gary]

I am only interested in engaging in further discussion on this topic with Stein, if, he is interested in doing so. He is the only conservative/moderate Christian on this site who appears to have some measure of rationality.

[One Bad Pig]

I'm done with you, Pigster.

So you've descended from incoherence to running away. This isn't your thread; you can't kick people out.

Maybe it's time for you to take another month-long break to let your ego heal.