Why is Bruce an Exception?

[djbrock]

No one said that surgeries always make things better, but where are these numbers alleging that there are higher suicide rates and poorer outcomes?

They've been in the news cycle. I've read several articles over time on them. I saved this one which is the guy who has been foremost on the issue. http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mich...der-sex-change

"He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people."

[fm93]

They've been in the news cycle. I've read several articles over time on them. I saved this one which is the guy who has been foremost on the issue. http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mich...der-sex-change

"He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people."

But I asked for data indicating that suicide rates are higher among transgender people who underwent surgery compared to transgender people who did not. That quoted part just compares the rate between transgender people who underwent surgery and people who aren't transgender. So that doesn't really prove what you were arguing.

Also, I found what appears to be the study he was referring to, and it doesn't support your argument either. The study follows transgender patients in Sweden from 1973-2003, and as the researchers report (under the section labeled "Mortality"):

.

So if anything, it appears that the surgeries have been yielding improved outcomes.

Additionally, the researchers acknowledged in the abstract that the surgeries do, in fact, alleviate gender dysphoria--which is what I'd been largely focusing on. So far, then, the study doesn't prove much beyond the fact that transgender patients who undergo surgery still face problems compared to the general population. But I don't think too many people were disputing that. It could very well be the case that the suicide rates would've been even higher had they not undergone the surgeries to at least alleviate their internal distress. It could also be the case that the post-surgery patients who attempted suicide did so not because the surgeries themselves generated MORE problems, but because they faced a great amount of persecution from people attacking them after undergoing the change.

[Adrift]

But I asked for data indicating that suicide rates are higher among transgender people who underwent surgery compared to transgender people who did not. That quoted part just compares the rate between transgender people who underwent surgery and people who aren't transgender. So that doesn't really prove what you were arguing.

Also, I found what appears to be the study he was referring to, and it doesn't support your argument either. The study follows transgender patients in Sweden from 1973-2003, and as the researchers report (under the section labeled "Mortality"):

.

So if anything, it appears that the surgeries have been yielding improved outcomes.

Additionally, the researchers acknowledged in the abstract that the surgeries do, in fact, alleviate gender dysphoria--which is what I'd been largely focusing on. So far, then, the study doesn't prove much beyond the fact that transgender patients who undergo surgery still face problems compared to the general population. But I don't think too many people were disputing that. It could very well be the case that the suicide rates would've been even higher had they not undergone the surgeries to at least alleviate their internal distress. It could also be the case that the post-surgery patients who attempted suicide did so not because the surgeries themselves generated MORE problems, but because they faced a great amount of persecution from people attacking them after undergoing the change.

So are you ignoring their conclusion?

Conclusion: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

[Cow Poke]

No one said that surgeries always make things better,

But serious non-reversible elective surgeries SHOULD have a substantial expectation of success, not just "well, let's try this and see what happens".

[fm93]

So are you ignoring their conclusion?

Conclusion: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

No. As I mentioned earlier, I actually agree with them that the surgeries may not suffice as treatment. But "may not" doesn't definitively equal "does not." Also, I was mainly just pointing out to djbrock that the study doesn't support his claim (that surgery makes things WORSE for transgender patients than they otherwise would've been).

[Cerealman]

No. As I mentioned earlier, I actually agree with them that the surgeries may not suffice as treatment. But "may not" doesn't definitively equal "does not." Also, I was mainly just pointing out to djbrock that the study doesn't support his claim (that surgery makes things WORSE for transgender patients than they otherwise would've been).

Just nitpicking but it says their risk of suicide goes up after the gender changing but not before. So how is that not worse off?

[fm93]

Just nitpicking but it says their risk of suicide goes up after the gender changing but not before.

[Cerealman]

And as of now?

[Adrift]

And as of now?

As of 2011,

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population.

[rogue06]

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[Cow Poke]

As of 2011,

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population.

And I think that it's reasonable to expect this will only get worse as there is less stigma (now that Brave Bruce championed the cause) of doing the surgery.

[fm93]

As of 2011,

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population.

It doesn't appear to be comparing them to other transgender individuals.

[Starlight]

Just nitpicking but it says their risk of suicide goes up after the gender changing but not before.

No, it doesn't.

It says that transexuals are at a higher risk of suicide both before and after medical sex-change, compared to the general population. This would seem to be unsurprising given the prejudice they are likely to experience.

This study did not compare suicide risk of transsexuals before and after medical sex-change. However it reports a previous meta-analysis of the effects of such medical interventions, which found that 80% of transsexual people reported subjective improvement to their quality of life due to undergoing a medical sex-change procedure.

The widespread nonsense propaganda among conservatives that medical sex-change procedures are bad for the people having them is bizarre... don't you think that doctors around the world might have spotted this if it were true and stopped actually performing sex-change procedures??? The consistent finding has been that medical sex-change procedures significantly improve the quality of life of people undergoing them, with 80% of people across all relevant studies reporting improved quality of life after the procedures. That's why doctors do them. What this study points out is that even after the procedure, and even with that improved quality of life, these patients are still at higher risk than the general population, and so further support and care is recommended. Again, this is probably primarily a result of social prejudice.

[hamster]

No, it doesn't.
don't you think that doctors around the world might have spotted this if it were true and stopped actually performing sex-change procedures???

They are...

their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery,about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

I feel like I have to put this disclaimer in every post, but I deeply sympathize with people with gender dysphoria. It just seems like it would be more fruitful to find out the neurological/psychological source of the problem and fix that rather than perform Frankenstein-esque medical procedures that apparently don't resolve the issue, for whatever reason.

[Cow Poke]

They are...



I feel like I have to put this disclaimer in every post, but I deeply sympathize with people with gender dysphoria. It just seems like it would be more fruitful to find out the neurological/psychological source of the problem and fix that rather than perform Frankenstein-esque medical procedures that apparently don't resolve the issue, for whatever reason.

Yeah!