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  • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
    No one said that surgeries always make things better, but where are these numbers alleging that there are higher suicide rates and poorer outcomes?
    They've been in the news cycle. I've read several articles over time on them. I saved this one which is the guy who has been foremost on the issue. http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mich...der-sex-change

    "He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people."
    Read my other blog posts at http://reasonablefaithknoxville.org

    Comment


    • Originally posted by djbrock View Post
      They've been in the news cycle. I've read several articles over time on them. I saved this one which is the guy who has been foremost on the issue. http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mich...der-sex-change

      "He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people."
      But I asked for data indicating that suicide rates are higher among transgender people who underwent surgery compared to transgender people who did not. That quoted part just compares the rate between transgender people who underwent surgery and people who aren't transgender. So that doesn't really prove what you were arguing.

      Also, I found what appears to be the study he was referring to, and it doesn't support your argument either. The study follows transgender patients in Sweden from 1973-2003, and as the researchers report (under the section labeled "Mortality"):
      Table 2 separately lists the outcomes depending on when sex reassignment was performed: during the period 1973-1988 or 1989–2003. Even though the overall mortality was increased across both time periods, it did not reach statistical significance for the period 1989–2003.


      So if anything, it appears that the surgeries have been yielding improved outcomes.

      Additionally, the researchers acknowledged in the abstract that the surgeries do, in fact, alleviate gender dysphoria--which is what I'd been largely focusing on. So far, then, the study doesn't prove much beyond the fact that transgender patients who undergo surgery still face problems compared to the general population. But I don't think too many people were disputing that. It could very well be the case that the suicide rates would've been even higher had they not undergone the surgeries to at least alleviate their internal distress. It could also be the case that the post-surgery patients who attempted suicide did so not because the surgeries themselves generated MORE problems, but because they faced a great amount of persecution from people attacking them after undergoing the change.
      Last edited by fm93; 07-26-2015, 07:32 PM.
      Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

      I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

      Comment


      • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
        But I asked for data indicating that suicide rates are higher among transgender people who underwent surgery compared to transgender people who did not. That quoted part just compares the rate between transgender people who underwent surgery and people who aren't transgender. So that doesn't really prove what you were arguing.

        Also, I found what appears to be the study he was referring to, and it doesn't support your argument either. The study follows transgender patients in Sweden from 1973-2003, and as the researchers report (under the section labeled "Mortality"):
        Table 2 separately lists the outcomes depending on when sex reassignment was performed: during the period 1973-1988 or 1989–2003. Even though the overall mortality was increased across both time periods, it did not reach statistical significance for the period 1989–2003.


        So if anything, it appears that the surgeries have been yielding improved outcomes.

        Additionally, the researchers acknowledged in the abstract that the surgeries do, in fact, alleviate gender dysphoria--which is what I'd been largely focusing on. So far, then, the study doesn't prove much beyond the fact that transgender patients who undergo surgery still face problems compared to the general population. But I don't think too many people were disputing that. It could very well be the case that the suicide rates would've been even higher had they not undergone the surgeries to at least alleviate their internal distress. It could also be the case that the post-surgery patients who attempted suicide did so not because the surgeries themselves generated MORE problems, but because they faced a great amount of persecution from people attacking them after undergoing the change.
        So are you ignoring their conclusion?

        Conclusion: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
          No one said that surgeries always make things better,
          But serious non-reversible elective surgeries SHOULD have a substantial expectation of success, not just "well, let's try this and see what happens".
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            So are you ignoring their conclusion?

            Conclusion: Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.
            No. As I mentioned earlier, I actually agree with them that the surgeries may not suffice as treatment. But "may not" doesn't definitively equal "does not." Also, I was mainly just pointing out to djbrock that the study doesn't support his claim (that surgery makes things WORSE for transgender patients than they otherwise would've been).
            Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

            I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

            Comment


            • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
              No. As I mentioned earlier, I actually agree with them that the surgeries may not suffice as treatment. But "may not" doesn't definitively equal "does not." Also, I was mainly just pointing out to djbrock that the study doesn't support his claim (that surgery makes things WORSE for transgender patients than they otherwise would've been).
              Just nitpicking but it says their risk of suicide goes up after the gender changing but not before. So how is that not worse off?
              "Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
              "And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
              Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
                Just nitpicking but it says their risk of suicide goes up after the gender changing but not before.
                ...though this was not statistically significant for the time period 1989–2003.
                Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                Comment


                • Originally posted by fm93 View Post
                  ...though this was not statistically significant for the time period 1989–2003.
                  And as of now?
                  "Kahahaha! Let's get lunatic!"-Add LP
                  "And the Devil did grin, for his darling sin is pride that apes humility"-Samuel Taylor Coleridge
                  Oh ye of little fiber. Do you not know what I've done for you? You will obey. ~Cerealman for Prez.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
                    And as of now?
                    As of 2011,

                    This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population.

                    Comment


                    • 0000000000cj.jpg

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        As of 2011,

                        This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population.
                        And I think that it's reasonable to expect this will only get worse as there is less stigma (now that Brave Bruce championed the cause) of doing the surgery.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          As of 2011,

                          This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population.
                          It doesn't appear to be comparing them to other transgender individuals.
                          Learn to do right; seek justice. Defend the oppressed. Take up the cause of the fatherless; plead the case of the widow.--Isaiah 1:17

                          I don't think that all forms o[f] slavery are inherently immoral.--seer

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cerealman View Post
                            Just nitpicking but it says their risk of suicide goes up after the gender changing but not before.
                            No, it doesn't.

                            It says that transexuals are at a higher risk of suicide both before and after medical sex-change, compared to the general population. This would seem to be unsurprising given the prejudice they are likely to experience.

                            This study did not compare suicide risk of transsexuals before and after medical sex-change. However it reports a previous meta-analysis of the effects of such medical interventions, which found that 80% of transsexual people reported subjective improvement to their quality of life due to undergoing a medical sex-change procedure.

                            The widespread nonsense propaganda among conservatives that medical sex-change procedures are bad for the people having them is bizarre... don't you think that doctors around the world might have spotted this if it were true and stopped actually performing sex-change procedures??? The consistent finding has been that medical sex-change procedures significantly improve the quality of life of people undergoing them, with 80% of people across all relevant studies reporting improved quality of life after the procedures. That's why doctors do them. What this study points out is that even after the procedure, and even with that improved quality of life, these patients are still at higher risk than the general population, and so further support and care is recommended. Again, this is probably primarily a result of social prejudice.
                            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                              No, it doesn't.
                              don't you think that doctors around the world might have spotted this if it were true and stopped actually performing sex-change procedures???
                              They are...

                              Originally posted by Wall Street Journal
                              We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.

                              It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.
                              I feel like I have to put this disclaimer in every post, but I deeply sympathize with people with gender dysphoria. It just seems like it would be more fruitful to find out the neurological/psychological source of the problem and fix that rather than perform Frankenstein-esque medical procedures that apparently don't resolve the issue, for whatever reason.
                              "Some people feel guilty about their anxieties and regard them as a defect of faith but they are afflictions, not sins. Like all afflictions, they are, if we can so take them, our share in the passion of Christ." - That Guy Everyone Quotes

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by hamster View Post
                                They are...



                                I feel like I have to put this disclaimer in every post, but I deeply sympathize with people with gender dysphoria. It just seems like it would be more fruitful to find out the neurological/psychological source of the problem and fix that rather than perform Frankenstein-esque medical procedures that apparently don't resolve the issue, for whatever reason.
                                Yeah!
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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